Bob - you said:

quote:

I was unsure whether the waist dart maximum width (greatest intake) should align with center front waist (where I put it in this patch) or with side waist (where the maximum side seam indent is placed. For now, I aligned it with the center front waist as that is where all Dress Shop darts have always aligned. But, if the side seam indent is placed at the narrowest part of the body, then perhaps the maximum dart intake should also be at that point. I just don't know.

I know that there has been a lot of discussion about where the waist should be, etc. Helen Joseph Armstrong says that when creating the torso draft (which the sheat and other dresses should come from), the waistline starts at the center front of the bodice. Everything else is drafted down from this point. Wouldn't it be easier if you just placed the waist of the dresses at the bottom of the center front length line? That is essentially what I had to do when I tested the patch. And it works.

The way you have it now, where we can move it by tweaking the high waist offset number works too, but it requires more knowledge on the user's part which will create problems with new users.

Lastly, regardless off where people where their pants, on a dress, the waist needs to be visually where the bodice sloper would place it. A dress with a waistline down at the low-rise pant level would look very strange and be unflattering. With a sheath, or other dress, we want to create the illusion that we have a waist indent where we are suppose to have a waist indent.

Just some thoughts.

Laura

I just went to the place where the patch is listed and clicked on the information about the patch that goes to a 4-page article by Kaaren and I printed it out so I could read it.

I am thoroughly confused. I believe I understand what she is saying, but it makes one think that one can look at your measuring chart and patterns and change the high waist offset and then check to see the difference to decide if the patch would help or not. There is no mention of the patch in her article, just a description of why there is a problem.

I decided to see what would happen if I changed the high waist offset as per her illustrations.
When I changed it, I went to the print window to see the difference. No change, so I decided to change it back to what it was. Then, I got the dreaded blue screen and was knocked out of the program.

I had to start up the computer again and went in to see if I could change the high waist offset to a number that was the opposite of what I made with the first change. Again, a blue screen and had to restart all over again.

The third time I went into DS, I set the high waist offset back to the original and got out.

Does Kaaren's article not tell/show you manually what the patch will do automatically? Can you not test to see what the patch will do for you by this article? Do you have to get the patch to get the real instructions?

The last message I sent to this groupee message board made my computer do some weird things and I had to shut the computer down and start over. I never had anything like this happen before. I am pretty puzzled.

I would like to point out that purple blue line was to show where the high hip is.This is usually UNDER the waist band for pants and skirts.

There are those users who desire their true to waist to sit
in the middle of the waist band
at the top of the waist band
and just under the waist band.
refuse to wear waist bands because the "waist indent" is too narrow from bottom of rib cage to top of high hip and all waistbands and belts are nasty looking.

The true waist is not a pin point spot.
The positioning is subjective

The user selects the waist placement.

Many do not have that models shape.

And place it in the dent formed by their panty brief line.

IF the users marked the waist very clearly and measured up from floor to that exact spot,and at side to an exact spot and down from shoulder/neck for the full will most likely have their waist at center and at side exactly where they want it for both center and side.
They will NOT need to make any adjustments.

Those that measured slightly off the waist because it was NOT well marked,the elastic shifted,they measured to mid elastic at one point, top or bottom of elastic at another have a high low hip tilt, a forward back pelvic tilt, a slight curve to the spine or any one of a 100 other reasons MAY need the adjustment.

We draft by numbers.
If you floor to waist is 38.625 at center and 39.325 at side thats what is used.

if your full is 18.625 over a B cup bust mound thats what we use

IF your full is 19.125 over a D cup thats what we use.

The full length will be effected by the "Hill" created by the bust line.the larger bust will have a longer full straght line than the smaller cup.

The same goes for tummies.a flat tummy will have a shorter straight line than a rounded
belly.That depends HOW you measure the "straight".

As there so many variables involved in both how the measurements were taken; what the body's assymetry is, whats the body's shape is where a lady wishes to wear her pant level and call it waist versus where she may have measured to as the waist indent may be somewhat indistinct.we are offering a method by whch to palce the waist.

If you have completed your pant sloper you have positioned the waist for where you want your pant waist. That may NOT be where ytou desire the shaping for a dress.

As to do you need to get the patch to see its effect.
YES of course.

How else can you decide where you want to place it?

I can say the average position for most testers is to decrease the high waisdt offset to a number of lets say 1.5 but there are others who use 1 or actually increase it to 3...

It would be crude to pre determine a set number.

Since this is one of the reasons I have had a separate pants chart from other patterns, perhaps things will be able to be combined into one chart. I'm hoping anyway. Wish I had time to do some testing for myself, but don't so will be interrested in the results everyone is getting with the patch. Hope they post to the board to let us know.

The final tool is not finished yet.
What we released in the patch was a means to explore results submitted by users.

Normally ONLY the testers get something like this; but that was deemed unfair as many of the users demanding this change never submitted their charts via problem reports and we felt they should have an opportunity to test it and report.

Unfortunatly they have not taken the opportunity or never reported their results if they did.

We wanted everyone to be able to explore this opportunity to the possible changes this tool could afford and provide feedback to best meet everyones "need".

So we will use the results submitted by those that felt they had a need and use that as the base for building the final tool.
Kaaren

quote:

The final tool is not finished yet.
What we released in the patch was a means to explore results submitted by users.

Normally ONLY the testers get something like this; but that was deemed unfair as many of the users demanding this change never submitted their charts via problem reports and we felt they should have an opportunity to test it and report.

Unfortunatly they have not taken the opportunity or never reported their results if they did.

This is unfortunately a lack of communication -- maybe I'm the only one who missed the announcement that this was a testing period and that in fact we were all beta testers. I didn't see this type of request in the annoucements of the patch availability.

I printed my torso sloper on Friday and even cut it out Friday night. Haven't had a chance to stitch it up and actually simply put it on a "to do" list as the first step before actually sewing a sheath ...

It's important information for us to know that the patch isn't just a fix but it is a step toward creation of a new tool.

Since my sheath was one that before was not drafting appropriately, I'll see if I can stitch up that sloper today.

How do you want the results to be reported by all the users to best convey the information? As "me too" posts within this topic, in another topic, by problem reports that send our measurements but with the note that the patch fixed it for us?

I'm sure you have lots of users willing to help if we know what is requested/expected of our test.

quote:

How do you want the results to be reported by all the users to best convey the information? As "me too" posts within this topic, in another topic, by problem reports that send our measurements but with the note that the patch fixed it for us?

I'm sure you have lots of users willing to help if we know what is requested/expected of our test.

Problem reports with measurements cannot show whether the results fit better or not. You can post a note or write a report as you prefer. After there have been enough reports to suggest a definite trend, we will announce that there is enough. So far, there have not been very many. I do not think we have seen a trend.

None of those that originally posted about this problem have subsequently posted that the patch did or did not correct the problem that they reported. If they do not choose to test or report, we do hope that someone that had not spoken up before but that had the same problem, will do so. If there is no evidence that this change does indeed correct the problem that was originally reported, then it will not be included in an update. This change was an attempt to be responsive to requests for change. If the attempt is not wanted, we certainly will not force it on anyone.

quote:

Problem reports with measurements cannot show whether the results fit better or not.

I just thought that maybe it would help you to have individual measurement sets for everyone who says it is working -- provided of course that a note is included to say the patch fixed the problem

quote:

Does Kaaren's article not tell/show you manually what the patch will do automatically? Can you not test to see what the patch will do for you by this article? Do you have to get the patch to get the real instructions?

The article tells you what the problem is and why this change may help. The instructions are "use the High Waist Offset measurement to adjust the waist position of shirts and dresses". That's it. This is a very limited test. There is not much to it.

The patch includes no files in it that are not in Dress Shop already and is unlikely to cause your system to crash. No others that have tried the patch have had problems running it. If your computer crashes when you use Dress Shop and it also behaves oddly when you use your email program, then you may have a problem with Windows, some other resident software, your hardware, or a virus. Certainly there is no way that Dress Shop can possibly cause an email program to act oddly.

This is what is confusing me --

we have these measurements in our chart:
full length front/back (shoulder to waist)
floor to waist straight
floor to hip
abdomen depth

The sheath & blouses & everything having a problem draft from the shoulder down --

So full length front/back would mark where the waist shaping is to go

The abdomen depth would mark how far below the waist to put the abdomen shaping

The floor-to-waist minus the floor-to-hip would give you the hip depth, or how far below the waist the hip shaping needs to be. Then from the hip (which we've told the program is the largest part of our lower body) the dress would either taper in, fall straight down, or flare out depending upon our design option.

Then wouldn't the sheath follow the contour of the body and curve in when needed or ease out where needed?

It just seems that those depth measurements are the keys to placing the circumference measurements accurately.

Maybe someone's already said this and I missed it. I'll go stitch my sloper and quit thinking about it. I'll let you know if the patch works for me.

Another thought about waist shaping......
I don't want to confuse the issue but would like to share something I read in Threads or another sewing publication.

The article said that it is more flattering for the waist shaping to be about 5/8 above the actual waist.

I measured many Commercial patterns and found that it varies quite a bit. Vogue often seems to place it an inch or more above waist. Personally I like it .5 to .625 above depending on the fit level.

I think this is what makes a more defined side indent work because there is more space between the waist indent and abd.

For MY figure, it the waist shaping is exactly at the waist, it looks like it is too long waisted. I am high hipped and there is not enough room for the program to draft a nice curve with abd ease in such a short space.

So.....just a thought.......
Nancy

quote:

The sheath & blouses & everything having a problem draft from the shoulder down --

So full length front/back would mark where the waist shaping is to go

The abdomen depth would mark how far below the waist to put the abdomen shaping

The floor-to-waist minus the floor-to-hip would give you the hip depth, or how far below the waist the hip shaping needs to be. Then from the hip (which we've told the program is the largest part of our lower body) the dress would either taper in, fall straight down, or flare out depending upon our design option.

Then wouldn't the sheath follow the contour of the body and curve in when needed or ease out where needed?

It just seems that those depth measurements are the keys to placing the circumference measurements accurately.

Maybe someone's already said this and I missed it. I'll go stitch my sloper and quit thinking about it. I'll let you know if the patch works for me.

I agree with this completely. That is, indeed, exactly how Dress Shop drafts without the patch. And yet, some users have reported it does not work acceptably for them.

True bust underbust is bust apex minus radius.
This prints a line that on some users is at near or even below waist.

It was determined back on DS5 or even before to draw in the line at a percentage of bust to waist. The other choice was to remove it very much like the high thigh line was removed.

The true placement is actually used in calculations within the program.

quote:

I just thought that maybe it would help you to have individual measurement sets for everyone who says it is working -- provided of course that a note is included to say the patch fixed the problem

In this case, it would not particularly help. We have 7 measurement sets that have been submitted by users that were interested in this issue. None of those have reported whether the patch worked or not.

As to the "everyone who says it's working" that you referred to, I can count those on one finger. Of those that have posted, here is the current tally. Since most of the posts were ambiguous, I will make up categories as best I can:

Did not work for me - 0

Confused - 3 (LindaF, InspiredSewing, LauraSews)

Reject the whole idea - 5 (SewingGeek, DLJones, Teresa pople, grammiepam, Morgan Babb)

Worked for me - 1 (ElizabethPope)

Based on the results so far, we would not release this change in an update.

quote:

quote:
I just thought that maybe it would help you to have individual measurement sets for everyone who says it is working -- provided of course that a note is included to say the patch fixed the problem


In this case, it would not particularly help. We have 7 measurement sets that have been submitted by users that were interested in this issue. None of those have reported whether the patch worked or not.

As to the "everyone who says it's working" that you referred to, I can count those on one finger. Of those that have posted, here is the current tally. Since most of the posts were ambiguous, I will make up categories as best I can:

Did not work for me - 0

Confused - 3 (LindaF, InspiredSewing, LauraSews)

Reject the whole idea - 5 (SewingGeek, DLJones, Teresa pople, grammiepam, Morgan Babb)

Worked for me - 1 (ElizabethPope)

Based on the results so far, we would not release this change in an update.

I think this might be a hasty decision --
1. The patch was posted on Friday morning; nothing was said that this was a trial for us to evaulate and provide meaning feedback. Nothing was said about let us know by "Sep X" how it's working for you.
2. No guidelines were given as to what feedback you want.
3. The article was confusing -- are we supposed to make additional changes/manipulations ourselves or are we just to evaluate what the patch is doing? So I don't think you can discount those posts.
4. Those that rejected the idea -- again, those are people posting in confusion about the drafting.
5. It's Monday morning (your time, lunch for me) and already you've decided that we're not interested enough to do more than complain. That's a short time span -- yes, many people use the weekend to sew but maybe THIS weekend was busy for some other activity. Maybe other people may be sewing this week.

I think it only fair to post a clear request to what you want us to do, let us know when you want to know what we've done, let us know what type of infomration you want, and then make the decision.

As for my phrase of "everyone who says it's working" I didn't mean those who had reported but those who are willing to report now that we know you are using this information for the basis for a new tool.

And it is encouraging that the "doesn't work" is the smallest category at 0 users.