Hi

Now I am confused. I thought "Waist" was the "narrowest point of the body" about 1"-2" above the navel. "Ab" is round about the navel or lower, is larger than waist, and is often the place where many younger people think the waist is because that's where they wear their pants. High waist is the mid-riff, somewhere between under bust and waist, is larger than waist (especially if you have a roll).

From the above, I get the impression you now say "waist" is where you wear your pants, and "high waist" is the narrowest part of the body.

No wonder there are problems with identifying where the side seam waist indent should be placed. For logical consistency, it should be at the true "waist", narrowest point on the body - not mid-riff "high waist", and not "where you wear your pants".

Mariln in Brisbane

Sounds like "princess" dart intake position unchanged, side seam shaping matching true waist, is what is actually need for "fitted" patterns.

Hi

Simple solution to problems caused by using a "waist" measurement that relates to "where you wear your pants" instead of to your true waist position as per measurement instructions.

Use 2 sets of measurements. One measured to true measurements according to the instructions that should work for bodice sloper, dresses/tops. Use a 2nd set of measurements that measure from the place where you want your pants to be used for pants sloper, pants/skirts.

Telling people to measure their "true" waist measurement, then drafting the program so those measurements align with "where you wear your pants" instead of the true waist position is not the way to go. May work for those who only make pants - but not for those who want fitted tops/dresses to actually fit at the waist.

I finally got a chance to sew up the sheath, and these are my findings. I took pictures to send to Kaaren. Firstly, yes I downloaded and installed the patch, put in a value of 1.5 for the waist offset.

When I tried on the dress(micor-mini) the front and back waist was a dream, the line down my back flowed perfectly. The front fit to a "t".

BUT the side was horrible. When I took and pinned 1.5 inches at the side just under the bust it was wonderful. The side was not level with the front and back (back before was not level but that had to do with my high bust, which Kaaren kindly took many hours to figure out)

When the side was not pinned it hang slanted and pulled at the front and back creating wrinkles, when pinned no wrinkles. I have no idea if this is me (measurements) or something else.

I would like to add that I have had to increase my side by 1.5 inches in order to get my sleeve to balance. Is that part of the problem or just a coincidence?

Anyway those are my findings so far...

Marilyn please dont confuse the name of the chart number we commandered for thsi test with true high waist.
The number was grabbed for the test.

The point is if a user selected a waist point for pants and a different waist point for slopers theres a gap.

If the pants due to the seat and crotch extensions and positioning and posture and and and needs a different floor to waist straight than they would prefer their dress shaping

theres a gap

this tool allows the user to sinmply fine tune the waist placement position at side seam.

I think we have tried too hard to describe it.

Using the patch and that specifc item high waist offset you can fine tune the placement of waist at side seam.

Or you dont need to if you like where that position is on fitted blouses and dresses.


The user alone decided if she needs to do soemthing

and by how much
and its that simple.

Kaaren

quote:

Originally posted by Marilyn in Brisbane:
Hi

Now I am confused. I thought "Waist" was the "narrowest point of the body" about 1"-2" above the navel. "Ab" is round about the navel or lower, is larger than waist, and is often the place where many younger people think the waist is because that's where they wear their pants. High waist is the mid-riff, somewhere between under bust and waist, is larger than waist (especially if you have a roll).

From the above, I get the impression you now say "waist" is where you wear your pants, and "high waist" is the narrowest part of the body.

No wonder there are problems with identifying where the side seam waist indent should be placed. For logical consistency, it should be at the true "waist", narrowest point on the body - not mid-riff "high waist", and not "where you wear your pants".

Mariln in Brisbane

Marilyn,

The placement of the waist is determined by the user. My waist (narrowest part) is more than 1-2" above my navel. That's the point I need to use for most garments and elastic waist pants.

However, I like my zippered pants lower. They look better proportionately and give me more room to tuck in a blouse. Thus - a second set of measurements for these pants.

I think there is a lot of confusion generated by this patch, which is using the high waist offset (not the high waist) as a possible fix for the problem.

This is all a test, and not ready for final release yet. I have confidence that, in the end, the patterns will draft better for those who are having this problem.

Bob,

Since you are expecting a response here...

I gave more detail to Kaaren, but I will say here that the placement of the bend in the side seam is better with the patch. What I don't like is that the "fix" also moves the widest part of the dart up. For me, it was better where it started. I think you are aware of this by now.

Carolyn

quote:

I gave more detail to Kaaren, but I will say here that the placement of the bend in the side seam is better with the patch. What I don't like is that the "fix" also moves the widest part of the dart up. For me, it was better where it started. I think you are aware of this by now.

Thanks, Carolyn. Most responders agree with you. I have no idea why dart intake should be greatest at the pants waist level while side seam shaping should be greatest at the blouse / dress waist level. But, that's why we test, to see what works. We will go with what works and try to figure it out as best we can.

quote:

From the above, I get the impression you now say "waist" is where you wear your pants, and "high waist" is the narrowest part of the body.

No wonder there are problems with identifying where the side seam waist indent should be placed. For logical consistency, it should be at the true "waist", narrowest point on the body - not mid-riff "high waist", and not "where you wear your pants".

I certainly agree with that. But, we are where we are and where we are is with a Dress Shop that presumed that these two positions were the same. If they are not the same, then we need some way to separate them. Having the measurement sets we have now identify "true" waist would mean that anyone that has pants working using their current measurements would now find that they no longer worked.

And, we would also have to add additional settings that would let you specify how much lower than true waist you wanted your pants waist.

We could do that. But, doing that would make most patterns fail for most users until they correctted their measurements to use "true" waist, rather than pants waist.

I suppose it is possible that they would not actually crucify us. But, I am fairly certain that many of them would find that solution undesirable.

To prevent such upsets, we are looking for a solution that involves minimal change and optional to the user. The approach that we used in the test patch (to add an offset to find what you refer to as "true" waist) was the least intrusive, minimal change that we could come up with.

Please understand that I agree with your principles. But, I am also trying to find a way forward that does not break many patterns for many people. We all have to remember that most Dress Shop users do not read any of the discussion boards. You that do may know what is going on, but many others will have no idea until their patterns changes. We would like their patterns to not change unless they choose to have them change.

If we can...

Thank you Bob for all your "explanations" about the waist indent issue.
I made a layered sheath dress for our daughter's wedding & it didn't have as nice a shape as I wanted & I came to the conclusion that "next time" I needed to raise the waist a little to get the illusion of more waist.

Also a question for Kaaren, will this take care of the spread ease issue.

Thank you for your attention to this issue. We're smart women AND we're adaptable so whatever you decide we can make it work!

quote:

Originally posted by DressShopBob:

We would like their patterns to not change unless they choose to have them change.

If we can...

Amen to that!

Sometimes it seems like we have a moving target.

Changes that make the program draft better are always welcome, even if they make us change a measurement slightly.

It's the changes that appear that were not intentional - that were the result of something not directly related - that are the most disconcerting. Users don't like it when something that worked in the past no longer works.

In case you haven't figured it out yet, the user base is filled with those who expect their software to work perfectly. Too bad that is an unrealistic expectation.

When this side seam issue is resolved, I expect the patterns to draft even better, eliminating a pencil change that some of us have had to make. Hopefully it won't cause the rest of the users to be upset because their patterns no longer work!

quote:

Originally posted by DressShopBob 19 September 2005 09:49 AM :
Of those that have posted, here is the current tally. Since most of the posts were ambiguous, I will make up categories as best I can:
<...snip...>
Confused - 3 (LindaF, InspiredSewing, LauraSews)

Bob, can you please move me from the "confused" to a new "mixed results" category. I don't know how you put me there. I was certainly initially confused by what was required in the PDF file and I thought this was a permanent fix rather than the test patch it is, but I was not confused by my results.

I have reported my results to Kaaren and yourself over the weekend. My measurements file was also attached to an email I sent to you on Sunday.
I liked the new side waist indent position which put the indent at my waist reference line.
I did not like the new waist dart fullness now positioned at the high waist level. This places the waist dart T pins at my midriff which is too high.


In case other users are interested, can't see the issue or want to know what the patch does, here is the report I sent Kaaren and my screen shots are posted on my website at this link
http://www3.telus.net/inspiredsewing/waist_indent.html


Original: Waist indent too low; ab and hip losing ease especially at the back.
Waist darts are in the right place.
Patch: waist indent in the right place; ab and hip have enough ease.
Waist darts fullness is too high (at high waist level).

I actually made this sheath a few months ago at standard fit as a trail. One with default side seam shaping and one with modified side seam shaping.
The default shaping (like original) didn't fit and even with standard ease it was too tight on the ab and hip.
The modified pattern fitted in both side shaping and ease.
The patch version above matches the modified pattern at the side seam shaping so I know that part will fit. If the patch darts are lowered to their original position, this would suit me.

quote:

Originally posted by DressShopBob:

quote:

I gave more detail to Kaaren, but I will say here that the placement of the bend in the side seam is better with the patch. What I don't like is that the "fix" also moves the widest part of the dart up. For me, it was better where it started. I think you are aware of this by now.

Thanks, Carolyn. Most responders agree with you. I have no idea why dart intake should be greatest at the pants waist level while side seam shaping should be greatest at the blouse / dress waist level. But, that's why we test, to see what works. We will go with what works and try to figure it out as best we can.

Bob, as you say, I am one who agrees totally with Carolyn preferring the dart intake at the original level, but I don't think she is saying the one is pants waist level and the one is dress waist level.

I only have one waist level for dresses, blouses, skirts and pants and that all coincides with my waist ref. line. I like the indent at that point at the side seam and the dart intake at the center waist ref. line level.

I have now made the sheath sloper with the patch and have reported to Bob.

Thanks to Tessa, she gave instructions that worked well.

The sheath sloper fits remarkably well. I left the high waist offset measurement at the 2.25" that I have always had it at. The darts are awesome and are at the correct placement and size. My side seams are perfect.

I have also done the "undo" so that this patch is no longer on my computer. I did not have the time to experiment as Tessa did, but since I, too, wonder about the reliability, overall of this patch, that fixes a problem I have had for 2 or 3 years.....really since I first had the program many years ago, it is hard to believe it can be fixed this easy without possibly breaking something else.

I just wanted to chime in about the patch. I really dont have the time right now to stop and test it but because I have a dramatic waist indent and a very short torso, it should be something for me. Ill get to it as so as I ca