OK
Fast and dirty' sloper' of a sheath shows a significant improvement in side seam shaping. I too didn't like the dart 'center pin' placement and had to rip them out and put them back at the waist seam line. But if I do that, the indent is much improved. I wasn't one of the people that had such a bad problem with this that I couldn't just pencil it but I do like the results. No Pencil Needed now that is if the pins on the center darts are moved back to the waist line. Had to rip them out and resew them at waist line. Sent in a problem report to Bob with my results. Will look forward to a tool to do this!

Haven't had time to sew anything. Looking at Fitted Shirt on screen with the Sloper and Reference lines on.

Pre-patch, 6.12 - my darts were widest aboaut 1" above the waist reference line. Side Seam indent was obviously down around the ab level, 2-3" below the waist. With the patch and Offset at 2, side seam indent now matches waist of sloper, but dart is widest near the High Waist line. Current patch appears to fix the side seam indent for Fitted Shirt & Sheath.

But I also looked at the Princess. Before the patch, both side seam indent and dart width were correctly placed at sloper waist. With the patch, if the Offset is set to 0, princess side seam indent and dart width are correct at sloper waist - but when I enter an Offset of 2 (to fix the Fitted side seam), the princess side seam indent and dart shaping both are raised about 2" above the sloper waist.

Fix one thing, break another. I may end up with 1 measurement set for fitted, another for princess, and someday when (I actually do the sloper)a 3rd set just for pants.

you bet!
send to me at patrns4u@aol.com
K

Marilyn the patch was installed to work fully on only two items
the sheath
and the fitted shirt for test purposes.

not the princess

so hang on for a bit.the issue about waist placement has nothign to do with side dart position, extra lengths for take ups etc.

the new tool will go into test shortly
it will allow you to adjust rthe side seam placement
and allow you to adjust where you want your greatest waist shaping placement to be.

details are not final

it will be tested by our beta test team

we will advise......

if you want to work on a princess please use the patch undo file.



Kaaren

So, is it feasable to not download the patch ( if I'm not doing anything with a side indent currently) and just wait until the new up date?

So, is it feasable to not download the patch ( if I'm not doing anything with a side indent currently) and just wait until the new up date?

SURE....
Kaaren

quote:

Pre-patch, 6.12 - my darts were widest aboaut 1" above the waist reference line. Side Seam indent was obviously down around the ab level, 2-3" below the waist. With the patch and Offset at 2, side seam indent now matches waist of sloper, but dart is widest near the High Waist line. Current patch appears to fix the side seam indent for Fitted Shirt & Sheath.

Marilyn wrote to me directly with several of these same comments and I have not replied yet as I was finding it difficult to explain without pictures. So, I made some pictures and posted those for Marilyn and anyone else to look over. I hope it helps to explain a little what the pattern drafting engine does with side waist indent, the side bust darts and waist darts.

Where are the pins of the waist darts set? Before the patch, they were placed at CENTER FRONT waist level. After the patch, they were moved up to the high waist offset position, same as the waist indent was moved. Most users reported that this did not work for them and that position should be left where it was before the patch. We will make it adjustable, but defaulting to where it was before the patch.

Why would Marilyn see these pins an inch above the waist line? Because her waist line tilts. The darts are located off-center, but their center width is aligned with center front waist level. Fit appears to be better if those dart's max width is aligned with center waist level, rather than the waist level halfway to the side seam.

Before the patch, the side waist indent appeared to be below the side waist position as indicated by the end of that reference waist line. Was this indent being drawn at the wrong place?

No, that part of the pattern has been rotated by the side bust dart opening. To see what happens to a pattern when you rotate a bust dart open in the side seam, please look at this web page:

[URL=http://www.LivingsoftNW.com/SideWaistPosition.htm ]Side Waist Position[/URL] http://www.LivingsoftNW.com/SideWaistPosition.htm

There is no question that the side seam indent is not placed where every user needs it. But, the appearance that it is below the reference waist line is just a confusion factor, not a cause. The side seam is rotated when the side bust dart is opened. The reference line is not. This is an unrelated issue that can obscure the real causes of the problem, whatever that might be.

We have not pinned down a single cause. Either we are not seeing the universal cause or there are many and they vary from user to user. However, we do think we have found a fix that does work for everyone.

When released, there will be two optional settings that you can choose to use or not use as you see fit. They will be:

Dress Waist Offset and Dress Dart Offset

If your dress pattern fit at waist and ab are currently satisfactory, you will not use either of these settings. If your Dress Shop dresses are snug at the ab level or if you suspect that you will have a better fit by raising the side seam indent, you will enter a number in the first setting and adjust it till you are happy with it. You will probably leave the dart offset alone. Most of those that tested have felt that the dart max width should have not been changed.

If you believe that you want your dart centers raised as well, then you can enter a number for the Dart Center Offset setting.

They will be independent. They will be optional. They will default to zero when you get it. Whatever you enter will be saved with the measurement set you are using at that time. They will not use the High Waist Offset number in the released version, so those patterns will not be effected by any of this.

We are still struggling with the interface for this. But, that's a detail that we can get acceptable now but would like to get better before we release.

I hope these notes help with understanding how these patterns are drafted...

Excellent, Bob.

I look forward to using this tool.

quote:

Originally posted by DressShopBob:
Marilyn wrote to me directly with several of these same comments and I have not replied yet as I was finding it difficult to explain without pictures. So, I made some pictures and posted those for Marilyn and anyone else to look over. I hope it helps to explain a little what the pattern drafting engine does with side waist indent, the side bust darts and waist darts.

http://www.LivingsoftNW.com/SideWaistPosition.htm

Bob,
In your second block of text on the referenced web page you discuss the bodice side waist position versus the pants side waist position.

Ah! I see where we (users) earlier misunderstood your description of waist positions. We (users) thought you were saying we had two waist levels on the body - one string tied around the waist for blouses and another lower string tied around the waist for pants. You were instead referring to the relative positions on the flat patterns.

For clarity I will rather refer to these points as the bodice side-waist-point and pants side-waist-point.

---------------------
Referring to your picture 1 & text. http://www.livingsoftnw.com/SideWaistPosition.htm
On any figure which requires a bust dart you will always get this difference between the bodice side-waist-point and pants side-waist-point (indicated by the end of the waist reference line). Essentially this gap is shaping and when the darts are sewn and the front bodice is cupped around the 3D body, the gap between the bodice and pant side-waist-points (reference line) disappears and the bodice waist perfectly meets the waistline on the body. If the bodice is joined to a skirt, the skirt portion is never moved or lifted from the waist reference line.

All the bodices in pictures 1,2,& 3 will fit in the same way and I agree with the text alongside each.

I respectfully disagree with some of your reasoning and wording of the text in the last (5th) block for reasons explained below. On the Sheath there is always side and waist darting, unlike picture 3.

------------------------------

A torso sloper - which is required for a dress (sheath) or blouse draft - is made by joining the bodice sloper to the straight skirt along the waist reference line. Sufficient darting must be rotated out of the bodice so the bodice waist aligns with the waist reference line. The bodices in pictures 1 and 3 cannot be used to make a torso sloper. A bodice similar to picture 2 can be used.

The waist reference line is drawn horizontally (in manual drafting) or with Dress Shop drafting, at the angle of the waist tilt as determined by the FTW measurements. The skirt (which already uses the same waist reference line) is drafted below the waistline. The bodice must be drafted with the darting rotated and arranged so that the bodice side-waist-point is aligned with the waist reference line. The bodice CF waist touches the CF waist reference line as always.

* The torso waist indent now lies at the end of the waist reference line where the bodice and skirt(/pants) side-waist-points intersect. The indent is never below the waistline. The indent is smoothed off in a curve.
* The bodice and skirt waist darts are merged to become a double pointed (fish eye) waist dart. The side bust dart is sewn normally for a sheath or further rotated to the shoulder for a princess block.
* The torso side seam length from underarm to indent is equal to the original bodice length (Side Length less armhole ease). The torso side seam length from indent to hem is equal to the skirt side length.


In DS6.12 (without patch) the sheath is not drafting to these guidelines at the side seam and indent. The sheath waist darts are correctly positioned.

The Princess patterns are drafting correctly where the side indent aligns with the end of the waist reference line and the panel waist shaping is aligned with the centre of the waist reference line. If the waist reference line is tilted, the Princess still drafts correctly. The Princess is using the same principles explained above except the side bust dart is rotated to the shoulder (or armhole) and the waist dart of bodice and skirt is incorporated into the panel line.

------------------------------

These are the reasons why I believe that the method being discussed to "fix" the indent problem with a user defined tool is incorrect. While the method used in the test patch works, it is treating the symptoms and not the cause. (Why is the Princess indent correctly determined but not the Sheath?)

Every user needs the indent at the end of the reference line so the bodice and skirt portions of the torso sloper still matches the separate pieces. This is in accordance with every established pattern drafting principle published and although, as is often pointed out, Dress Shop drafts to custom numbers, these principles can and do still apply and can still work in this custom environment.


This is the last opinion I will offer on this matter unless specifically asked. As the programmer, the decisions are obviously yours alone and I will test whatever fix you come up with.

quote:

(Why is the Princess indent correctly determined but not the Sheath?)

Tessa, your post had a number of points that I would like to respond to. But, they are scattered about and rather than quoting the entire post and writing a long response, I'll reply to bits at a time.

The princess patterns do not have a side bust dart. The position of the side waist indent is not rotated downwards with those patterns. Genearlly, it is rotated outwards. The princess line dart in the shoulder is above the bust. As it opens, the entire pattern moves away from center, not downwards as a side bust dart does.

These patterns are just engineered differently. Sorry I cannot explain it better...

quote:

These are the reasons why I believe that the method being discussed to "fix" the indent problem with a user defined tool is incorrect. While the method used in the test patch works, it is treating the symptoms and not the cause. (Why is the Princess indent correctly determined but not the Sheath?)

Every user needs the indent at the end of the reference line so the bodice and skirt portions of the torso sloper still matches the separate pieces.

Drafting the waist indent of all upper body patterns to the position used by the bodice sloper is quite possible. In fact, that was the first thought I had when this issue came up. I modified my copy of the program to draft both of those waist lines and loaded every measurement set I could find to see where those lines were placed. 98% of them, the bodice waist line was higher than the marked reference waist line we now use. Usually by 2" to 3".

While drafting to the bodice waist line would be easy, the emails and posts on this topic that we have seen since it came up suggest that not every user would want that. It would change the draft of every fitted top for every user, of course. And, since only one out of 10 usres reads this discussion board, that means that 9 out of 10 will be surprised by this change.

Will they all like it anyway? Some have posted that they do not want the change. Some do not need it. Some have adjusted their measurements around the current draft. Just increasing ab and hip measures would get most of the same effect. Not all, but most. For users that have done that and for any other user that likes the draft of their blouses and dresses, this change will be a kick in the face.

We do want to make the drafting engine work better. We also want to accomodate those that have used the product in the past and that have patterns that they like. The only way that I know to do both is to make whatever change we do be an option and not force it down anyone's throat.

Thank you for the replies Bob.

Hi all. I've been away from home and away from my DS (ugh!) for 3 months now. Just got back and learned about this patch. I'm really excited about it and hopes it works for me as I was not happy with my side seam shaping before. I'll test it out as soon as I can and report my findings.

Thanks Livingsoft for all your efforts to make this software the very best!

Darlene / Orlando FL area
DS6Pro and just about everything else!

Hold off a while, Darlene. A new version is being tested now. I think you will like it.

Thanks, Carolyn. I'll wait to try the new version when it comes out.

Darlene / Orlando