Finally got the time to make the new torso sloper after changing my high waist measurement and EUREKA my sheath waistline shaping now falls where I feel like my waist is. IT FEELS GREAT.

Thank you so much everyone who has been working on this.

Elizabeth

I have yet another pattern ready for a mockup and now the program is changing. But one of the things I like is that DS keeps being updated with new patterns etc. DLJones, Teresa, and sewinggeek speak for me. My waist is my waist! That is were I want my pants and skirts to settle. I want my blouses, jackets and dresses to follow this also.

YEHAAAAAAA
Kaaren

GREAT.if youw aist is centered, yoru emasurements correct and you are HAPPY with yoru waist side seam shaping do NOTHING.

If you wish to adjust the side seam placement use the new tool which is not yet re labeled as adjust your waist side seam placement position at side only ( hopefully something shorter)

Kaaren

quote:

I just looked at the pdf file by Kaaren and am a little boggled. I thought that my waist was my waist no matter what. When measuring is done, isn't the front/back fulls measured up from the place marked at the front/back waist and the floor to waist measured up from the floor to that mark? Not being a smart aleck here, but am trying to understand how the two measurements don't meet if the measurements are done properly. Now I am talking measurements here, not wearing preferences. If they are indeed measured to/from the same point doesn't that mean that the waists for top and bottom should draft to the same point - if they are drafting to the waist? A blouse should draft its waist to that point and then design choices for length should then occur - at least that is how in my perfect world it would make sense to draft. VBG

Hello Patti,

I agree. They should be the same. Dress Shop measuring instructions tell you to take those measurements in such a way that they should be the same. The drafting rules of the program assumed they were the same. For you, they might even be the same, in which case you may not need the change in this patch.

But, after all the measuring is done, there is the sloper. To make pants and bodice patterns fit the way you like them to fit, you may need to make adjustments. That is suggested and expected and most users do make adjustments while they are working on their slopers. Those adjustments involve changing measurements. Some of those adjustments MIGHT change the position of the pants waist versus the blouse / dress waist. When you work on the bodice armhole, do you redraw the waist line and remeasure every measurement that goes to it? Or, do you change your Armhole Depht and Side Length until the armholes feel right and move on? When your pants waist does not hang right, do you start over with all measurements or do you adjust the Floor To Waists and get the waist line right?

Either can work. Some people do one and some do the other. Some maintain two measurements sets, one for pants and one for tops. What are the differences between these sets? I don't know and certainly the Dress Shop program cannot know and it cannot make allowances for the differences that may or may not be there.

A bodice is an upper body garment. It uses only upper body measurements. No others.

Pants are a lower body garment. They use below the waist measurements only. No others.

Any blouse, dress, jacket, or coat that extends to hip level or longer is a hybrid. Those patterns use measurements that were adjusted using a bodice and they also use measurements that were adjusted using pants. There is no sloper that confirms that when you mix those two sets of measurements that everything is consistent between them.

To date, the most common complaint about mixing upper and lower body measuremements has been that the dress CAN BE too tight at ab level, that the waist indent was too low and needed to be raised. If yours is not too tight at the ab, then you may not have this problem and will not need or appreciate the change. Don't worry, you don't have to get it (more below).

This could happen because measurements were adjusted and now no longer meet at the same waist position. Or, it could be that pants waist position and dress waist position are not at the same place. Or, it could be that Dress Shop just does not take enough measurements in this critical area to cover all the possible cases of body shaping. Or, maybe there is some other reason altogether. All of these reasons may apply in one case or another for different users. Looking at the measurements does not show us which of these might be involved.

But, the fix can be the same in any of those cases. By providing a way for the you to adjust the waist position of a top independently of the waist position of pants and skirts.

I agree with you fully that many people will not need this. If you do not need that adjustment, then don't use it. When and if this change is released in an update, there will be a setting allowing you to use it or not. Probably in the Settings dialog, probably something like "Draft blouse and dress waist to high waist level". Check it on to raise the side seam waist position. Check it off to keep the draft as it is now.

quote:

Surely the place we call our waist and from which we measure is the point at which we want any waist point or indentation point to occur whether it's pants, skirts, blouses or dresses.

Perhaps. For you. Is that the case for everyone?

Did you look at the article that Kaaren posted on the patch page? It is brief and short changes the complexities and possibilities a bit. But, there is a photo in there of a model with 3 lines across her body. There is a purple line at the navel, where Kaaren assumed a pants waist would sit. There is a higher green line above there that Kaaren considered the high waist level.

Where should the waist indent of a blouse hit? It could hit at that violet line. But, the steep increase in width between their and the wider ab level could require a sharp angle in the side seam. Side seams are smoothed out and that sharp angle is not going to happen. So, her blouse could be tight at the ab level.

If the indent is placed at the position of the higher green line, though, then there is more room for the garment to expand before it gets to the ab level. That higher line - is it the narrowest place? Not really. The violet line is about the same. But, one is called a waist position. And, the other may be the place where the indent in a blouse should occur.

Don't get hung up on what it is called. An alternate waist? High Waist? Dress waist? How about we just call it "Convenient place to provide shaping for a blouse"? Call it whatever makes you feel comfortable.

The questions are:

1. "Do you need your blouse or dress side seam shaping changed or not?"

2. "If you do, can you get the change you need using the High Waist Offset measurement?"

If you can make it work, then we can all debate how to describe the need so it makes everyone happy. But, if it does not work, then we can toss the change and not need to figure out how to describe it.

So, does it allow you to improve blouse and dress fit or not?

quote:

Before I go on, could someone tell me which patterns in DS are "high waist pants". I know the hollywood pants are, but I am getting confused on this part of discussion that talks about high waist pants and skirts. Actually I would like to know how the highwaist numbers was used before the patch and which patterns it was use on so that I can look at those too.

I'll give you the background on this measurement and why it may be usable for other purposes at this time. We introduced the High Waist Front, Hight Waist Back, and High Waist Offset measurements with the release of Dress Shop 5, with the intention of using them for body shaping patterns (corsets, girdles, body shapers) at some point. Essential Lingerie had just come out and we had dropped those patterns from the collection because we did not have the measurements needed to make them work.

Early efforts on those patterns were not acceptable, however, and they have never been released. I don't know if they ever will be.

In the meantime, in an effort to get some use from these measurements, Livingsoft released the Hollywood Pants, the High Waist Pants, and the High Waisted Skirt. These are all in pattern packet 1049,along with the low-rise and hip-hugger skirts. The pants are in Ultimate Pants as well.

Among the waisted dresses, there are both high waist dresses (which use this measurement to place the waist line) and empire waist dresses (whose waist is derived from bust position plus bust radius).

All of these patterns will continue to work with the change being suggested here. IF you change the High Waist offset number, then the waist position on these patterns will also change. That may be exactly correct. Or not.

If a substantial number of people make these patterns and if they find that the change makes these patterns less effective, then we can consider the pros and cons of adding more measurements so these waist levels (dress versus pants versus high waisted pants) can ALL be independent.

Personally, I suspect that the confusion of adding more measurements will be worse than the benefit provided, but we can do it if more people want it than not.

quote:

To me, and I am not the authority on this, waist level on pants fluctuate as much as skirt lengths. I wear all of my pants at the same level, no matter the style. My daughter wears hers at a different level which varies depending the style. So therefore, I think on pants that one would want to have that flexibility.

But I am trying to grasp the waist for shirts and dresses. I think that no matter where you wear your pants waistline then you would want the shirt or jacket to still curve in at natural waist. Too high and it looks empirely like and some may think you are pregnant. Too low and and it looks like a dropped waist style. So I think that blouses and dresses that fall with the indent at the natural waistline look right to the eye.

And, for you, no change may be needed or wanted. This change is being offered for those that want their blouse and waist indent raised, for users getting too tight a fit at ab level because of the side seam smoothing that was done. Some of those with that complaint are unwilling to change their ab, waist, or hip measurements to get the dress fit at ab level that they want. I don't blame them. Their pants would not fit right if they do that.

But, widening all blouses and dresses at the ab level is not a good thing either. Some people do not want or need it. Dress Shop needs some way to know who wants it and how much they want. It would be nice if we could look at a measurement set and see that it will be too tight at the ab. We have not been able to predict that, though, using the limited data that we have. The measurement set itself just does not show how the final garment will fit.

So, somehow the user must decide when and if an adjustment is needed and by how much. And, they then need to let the program know what they need and want.

This change permits that. All under the user's control and choice. Easy to adjust. If you want a change, you can have it. If you don't want it, you don't need to use it. The patch is a trial to see if it can work. If it does, we will make it optional so those that do not need or want it do not need to bother.

quote:

I know that some people wear their belts and undergarments at different places above and below the waist, but I did not know that this was the norm. I thought this was a personal choice that was not the norm and they would have to specify this change in their measurement charts if they desired this change.

I think this statement really sums up the entire problem we are discussing here. There is no norm. That is you are trying to use custom measurements, so your draft will be to your numbers and not a mythical standard.

And, the personal choice about moving the waist position of belts and undergarments should be specified? Yes. How? We have no measurement in Dress Shop at this time that let's you specify that you want your belt or undergarments to ride at some point other than your one and only waist.

That's what we are talking about now. Providing a measurement that you can use to specify that preference.

quote:

I am having a hard time following the idea that there is a high waist for dresses and a low waist for pants.

My waist is my waist. I do not wear my pants or dresses or skirts at a different place. My waist is not tilted. My waist is level with a slight 1/4" rise at the sideseam. That 1/4" is not even discernable.

I know women are not shaped like men through the waist area, but I believe we are only speaking of women's waists here and women's patterns. I also know I do not speak for some women who do have tilted waists. Whether women with a tilted waist have the same problems as a man with a tilted waist, I do not know. I do know that men or women can have a higher waist line in either the front or back.

Whether there is one waist or two may not be the issue for you. But, other possible issues have the same fix, so it should not matter. Try this one, perhaps.

Let's assume your waist circumfernce is 35.5" and your ab is 44". Ab depth is 3". You want about the same ease at waist and ab. That means that your blouses and dresses must expand by 8.5" in a 3" space. Divide that up front and back, left and right, and you get 2 1/8" at each side seam. That's a lot of angle to that seam.

Of course, darts can handle some of that. We can widen the side seam at the waist point and increase the dart width by the same amount. But, if darts get too wide, then cause puckers and bubbles and that's not good either.

So, the dart width is constrained and the curve of the side seam is smoothed out to prevent (or at least try to minimize) the angles and corners that you could get if it were not smoothed. The net effect is that the side seam does not get wide enough by the time it gets to your ab level.

What to do? Make the darts wider. That would work, but has other bad effects. Don't smooth the side seam so much. Allow a sharp bend there. Looks ugly and is hard to sew, but it would provide the fabric you need at the ab level.

Or, pull the waist position up some. As you and others requested. In that case, there is more than 3" for that side seam curve to work in. The curve can be greater AND smoother. More fabric at ab and no corner or sharp bend at the side seam.

What does it take to get that effect? Just the choice of moving the max indent upwards some. It's just a way to smooth the side seam shaping while providing the ease you want at waist and ab. If you don't like the idea of calling that the waist position of the dress, then tell me what to call it that you like better.

quote:

Originally posted by Kaaren Hoback:
If you wish to adjust the side seam placement use the new tool which is not yet re labeled as adjust your waist side seam placement position at side only

Which patterns can this be expected to affect? Can the new tool be made to use with one individual pattern, as we use some of the other tools; or will it be a tool that must be enabled or disabled in Settings which would effectively affect all pattern drafts?

Bob, thanks for the sane replies to my post last night. I let my frustration get out of hand more than I should have. Stress from this past work week has shortened my tolerance level considerably.

I have just sent you a private email with lots of data in it. It is my findings from a few months ago. The gist of that email is posted here for anyone who may be interested (obviously this is without the patch now under discussion):

Compare the sheath to the sloper. The sloper has a dart and comes to the correct position at the side waist. The sheath also has that side dart yet the indent is lower than the sloper waist indicates. As a result the sheath loses some ease at the abdomen and hip.

The Shoulder and Armhole Princess patterns work beautifully, both indenting at the correct side waist position coinciding with the sloper. On these two patterns the abdomen and hip ease is not being trimmed off. The side seam length of the sloper is comparable to the princess bodice side length (allowing for armhole ease).

For other users (without the patch) who may not be seeing the problem under discussion try using a standard Misses or Misses RTW chart. It is not apparent with the Womens chart where the waist is thicker eg: figure types H and O (apple) but I do see it on figure types X, A (pear/triangle) and Y (large bust, straight waist and hips/ upside down triangle).

Tessa
DS 6.12

I went into my DS program to compare what Tessa discussed in her message. I have version 6.12.

I noticed that the under bust line is drawn about 2-1/4" below the base of the bust. I never noticed this before. Shouldn't it be right at or slightly below the base of the bust?

I see that the high waist is not drawn in at all so I can not see where it has been placed.

Back to Bob's message stating that the waist indent should be a little higher than waist level, that is good so the angle toward the ab has enough room to look nice. I agree. Right now, without the patch, my ab is 3" below the waist and shows as the narrowest part of my torso. My high waist is 2-1/4" above the waist. That is a very wide distance that a correction would have to be made.

I do not believe that the angle a little above the waist to the ab should start at the high waist level. That would be too high. The high waist would only be useful for me for design emphasis.

I am a little concerned about the side seam and that the only way we get any shaping on the side seam at all with a torso length garment (overblouse) is with waist darting. When I use the front waist darts, I get strange puffiness of the fabric above the side bust dart. When I take those darts out, I don't have that puffiness. My flat pattern text shows (about 5/8") indenting at the waist along with the waist darts. With the sloper and garments that end at the waist, with DS we get the indent to the waist, but not with overblouses.

I know that some people move the waist darts to the side seam and I am sure this helps to shape the side seam. The initial information from DS was that the darts would provide all the shaping of the fitted garment. Is this still true?

quote:

I noticed that the under bust line is drawn about 2-1/4" below the base of the bust. I never noticed this before. Shouldn't it be right at or slightly below the base of the bust?

My line is about that far below the bust also. I don't know what determines the position of this line. On the surface, it seems that it would vary depending on a person's bust radius,
but that isn't the case with my measurements. It does match, however, on Ms RTW size 12.

If I were to make a dress with a seam under the bust, I would want the seam to be under the bust mound, which is not what I would get if I were to use the under bust reference line.

At any rate, I don't think that measurement is used for much other than bras. Bob or Kaaren may correct me on that.

Carolyn

quote:

My line is about that far below the bust also. I don't know what determines the position of this line. On the surface, it seems that it would vary depending on a person's bust radius,
but that isn't the case with my measurements. It does match, however, on Ms RTW size 12.

If I were to make a dress with a seam under the bust, I would want the seam to be under the bust mound, which is not what I would get if I were to use the under bust reference line.

At any rate, I don't think that measurement is used for much other than bras. Bob or Kaaren may correct me on that.

The under bust level is not used for anything. The under bust width is used in the bra pattern and as the waist width of the empire waist patterns.

The under bust level that is used to show that reference line on the screen is 20% of the distance from bust apex to waist - same as the dart offset for the side bust dart. Both can be adjusted using the side dart offset setting in the dart dialog. If you do not have a dart tool, you can find that setting in the Options dialog.