We posted a patch yesterday afternoon that will help you adjust your side seam waist shaping position IF it needs it.

Details on the official list here under updates!

I would like to suggest you use a sheath at micro mini length, click fit level to no design ease and stitck in a back zipper when you test.

This way it should hug your body sufficiently to really check both hip and darting from shoulders to below the hip.

Im going to put a "torso sloper pattern" to trial for you to laod in the club and on the class forum pages.

you can easily download it if you dotn feel you can develop it from your main pattern menu.

Kaaren

Initial testing of the patch looks good. I drafted a shell. Since I knew about how much to adjust the waist indent, I could tell on screen that it was much better. I cut one out, so will have a better idea tomorrow. I don't have time right now for the more in-depth testing suggested by Kaaren. Later.

Thanks for the fix!

I have printed and sewn a micro-mini sheath to try the new patch, and it is much better. I had to decrease my high waist offset dramatically to move the waist line where I wanted it, but it works.

I have a few questions:

When I was trying to decide on how to change my waist offset, I wasn't sure if I was to watch the t-pins on the fisheye darts as they moved down, or the waist shaping in the side seam as it moved up. In the end, I kept decreasing the high waist offset until both of these were as close to the same place (horizontally) as I could get them on my pattern. In otherwords, the widest part of the fisheye darts lines up with the indent of the waist shaping. Are there any other tips as to how this should be done?

So, since this affects the high waist pants, is there a long term fix planned, or will I just need to use a different measurement chart for those pants? Are you waiting to see if the patch works before deciding on whether it will become the default way to use the high waist measurement?

Will this also effect the waist shaping location of princess patterns? I made the stretch princess tank earlier this spring and love it, except that it was tighter from the ab down. I made it out of a stretch fabric, and it fits perfectly above the waist (no armhole gaping). I didn't even think to check if the waist was possibly in the wrong spot on this pattern at the time.

Anyway, I am excited. My husband thought the micro-mini sheath looked great - even in muslin. I don't know if I will make a micro-mini version for going out of the house, but I would love to make a few nice fitting sheath dresses. I had given up on doing this with DS a year ago due to this waist shaping problem. Thanks for the fix.

Laura

I downloaded and tried the patch and read the pdf file but I can't see exactly what we must do to implement the fix other than download the files. I see you talk about the high waist being used but must we change any measurements and if so, which ones and by how much? Can we have specific instructions for this please?

I do see that my waist indent is closer to where I want it to be but I also see that other things are broken. The waist dart notches and maximum dart width is now moved up from the waist reference line to the high waist reference line. This is not right.
Browsing other patterns I find that the princess patterns now have their waist indent moved up from the waist reference line and it is now too high, similar to how the sheath indent was too low. Fix one, break the other.
I have tried all patterns with my custom measurements and standard RTW charts.

You say the issue is caused by of a difference in measuring and totalling the Full length Front and FTW front, but my separate measurements total the same as the single neck point to floor measurement. The standard charts also show the waist indent problem yet they have a level untilted waist and equal straight and conformed measurements so surely a measuring problem is excluded there.
Users are consistently saying the low indent is equal to the dart width and doesn't it give you a clue that the issue is something else other than FTW measurements?

I'm sorry but I think you are shooting in the dark here.
I'm getting increasingly frustrated because there has been continuous implicit denial that there is an issue (Point 4 of side seam indentions wrong ) yet a day later Kaaren for the first time acknowledges there is an issue Indentations on side seam and now this fix is breaking other things which weren't checked before release.

Bob says it's drafting to original specs ("side seam indentions wrong" topic) but then whoever is now interpreting the drafting specifications for the programmers is lacking some fundamental understanding of drafting.

Tessa
DS 6.12

"I downloaded and tried the patch and read the pdf file but I can't see exactly what we must do to implement the fix other than download the files. I see you talk about the high waist being used but must we change any measurements and if so, which ones and by how much? Can we have specific instructions for this please?"

I think all you need to do is change your high waist measurement. Mine looked better initially, but I was out of town all day, so haven't had time to look closely or to see if anything else got broken.

Carolyn

quote:

I have printed and sewn a micro-mini sheath to try the new patch, and it is much better. I had to decrease my high waist offset dramatically to move the waist line where I wanted it, but it works.

I have a few questions:

Hi Laura,

You had several good questions, each of which needs a bunch of words in response, so I'm going to try to break this up into multiple quotes and answer each in turn....

quote:

When I was trying to decide on how to change my waist offset, I wasn't sure if I was to watch the t-pins on the fisheye darts as they moved down, or the waist shaping in the side seam as it moved up. In the end, I kept decreasing the high waist offset until both of these were as close to the same place (horizontally) as I could get them on my pattern. In otherwords, the widest part of the fisheye darts lines up with the indent of the waist shaping. Are there any other tips as to how this should be done?

I was unsure whether the waist dart maximum width (greatest intake) should align with center front waist (where I put it in this patch) or with side waist (where the maximum side seam indent is placed. For now, I aligned it with the center front waist as that is where all Dress Shop darts have always aligned. But, if the side seam indent is placed at the narrowest part of the body, then perhaps the maximum dart intake should also be at that point. I just don't know.

quote:

So, since this affects the high waist pants, is there a long term fix planned, or will I just need to use a different measurement chart for those pants? Are you waiting to see if the patch works before deciding on whether it will become the default way to use the high waist measurement?

We have three theories about the high waisted patterns (pants, skirts, and waisted dresses - not to be confused with the empire waist dresses which have a waist placed based on bust). The first theory is that this new high waist position (narrowest part of the body) will also be the appropriate place for the waistline of high waisted pants and skirts. If this theory is correct, then the pants and skirts will work with this change and no more needs to be done for them.

The other theory is that some other distance above the normal pants waistline is needed and it can be based off some percentage of Full Length Front - perhaps 10%. If that works for many, then we can set the high waisted pants and skirts to draft at that level and leave the High Waist Offset to set the waist level of the fitted tops. Confusing, maybe. Might need to rename the measurement. Still, it would be a minimal change.

The third theory is the worst. We might need an offset for fitted tops and another offset for high waisted skirts and pants. This would mean adding a new measurement. New instructions. Incompatibility with old measurement sets. Many hassles making the switchover in this case. Hopefully, this path will not be needed.

quote:

Will this also effect the waist shaping location of princess patterns? I made the stretch princess tank earlier this spring and love it, except that it was tighter from the ab down. I made it out of a stretch fabric, and it fits perfectly above the waist (no armhole gaping). I didn't even think to check if the waist was possibly in the wrong spot on this pattern at the time.

The princess patterns are not included in this test. The side seam shaping IS changed for them, but not their waist dart intake position. They might be better, but they will not be consistent with the other fitted patterns and I would not recommend testing with them.

If the test works well, we will finish the change for the princess patterns as well. If your princess patterns have been tight in the ab, then this change should improve that. But, the princess pattern change is not complete in the patch.

quote:

I downloaded and tried the patch and read the pdf file but I can't see exactly what we must do to implement the fix other than download the files. I see you talk about the high waist being used but must we change any measurements and if so, which ones and by how much? Can we have specific instructions for this please?

You can adjust the side seam waist indent position using the High Waist Offset measurement.

quote:

You say the issue is caused by of a difference in measuring and totalling the Full length Front and FTW front, but my separate measurements total the same as the single neck point to floor measurement. The standard charts also show the waist indent problem yet they have a level untilted waist and equal straight and conformed measurements so surely a measuring problem is excluded there.
Users are consistently saying the low indent is equal to the dart width and doesn't it give you a clue that the issue is something else other than FTW measurements?

Tessa, I'm sorry that you missed the point of Kaaren's write up on this. Her short article summarized some of it, but it would take a short book to cover all that we have discussed and debated on this topic.

The basic point is not that there is any measuring error, but that the waist position of a pair of pants is not necessarily exactly the same as the narrowest part of a dress or blouse. The "waist" of a blouse or dress may be higher than where people hang their pants. In my admittedly non-feminine body, the pants waist sits on my hip bone. If you look at the skeleton and skinny model in Kaaren's article, you can see that location is lower than the narrowest part of the female body, where you would want the maximum intake for a blouse or dress.

That is what this is all about.

The oft-repeated observation that the amount by which the indent is lower happens to match the width of the side bust dart is correct, but irrelevant. The indent is intentionally lowered below the side waist position by that amount. That is done so that when the dart is sewn closed, it will be pulled upwards by the width of the dart and end up where it belongs. This was done very carefully and intentionally and works properly for many.

Those that have been reporting a fit issue have a different problem, one that our change can address. If your pants waist position does not match your preferred dress waist position, you can now adjust them independently. Those that need it moved can move it. Those that do not need it moved do not need to. This is the essense of drafting to the values that the user provides. Each can get what they need as there is never going to be universal agreement that any one draft is perfect for everyone.

I am having a hard time following the idea that there is a high waist for dresses and a low waist for pants.

My waist is my waist. I do not wear my pants or dresses or skirts at a different place. My waist is not tilted. My waist is level with a slight 1/4" rise at the sideseam. That 1/4" is not even discernable.

I know women are not shaped like men through the waist area, but I believe we are only speaking of women's waists here and women's patterns. I also know I do not speak for some women who do have tilted waists. Whether women with a tilted waist have the same problems as a man with a tilted waist, I do not know. I do know that men or women can have a higher waist line in either the front or back.

I always thought that the straight and the conformed measurements on the chart were what told the program where the tilt of the waist was. I had no idea that there could be two waistline points.

In my life time, if I wanted a high waisted garment, the high waist was a defined measurement that was the same distance above my waist all the way around. If I wanted hip huggers, then the pants were dropped the same distance all the way around the waist by the same amount.

I was real happy when DS came out with the high waist measurement because then I thought I could use it for high waisted garments where the garment design detail of the waist arises to this design point of the midriff.

The high waist measurement place on my body is NOT the smallest part of my torso. My waist is the smallest part of my torso. If my waist was not the smallest, I could not wear a belt comfortably unless it was very loose and would shift up and down randomly. My belts and undergarments settle in at that smallest part of my body.

I know that some people wear their belts and undergarments at different places above and below the waist, but I did not know that this was the norm. I thought this was a personal choice that was not the norm and they would have to specify this change in their measurement charts if they desired this change.

I thought the measurement chart was for normal measurement places and that the waist was the smallest place on the torso, or in the case of an apple shaped person, where they were most comfortable with having their waistline.

I have to say that I have not looked at the measurement chart of the latest version 6.12. It may have revisions I have not read about yet. I probably should because I have been surprised before by changes that were made to the measurement chart with no announcements.

If I have mentioned anything above that is incorrect, I am hoping that someone will be kind enough to set me gently straight.

Bob,

I just looked at the pdf file by Kaaren and am a little boggled. I thought that my waist was my waist no matter what. When measuring is done, isn't the front/back fulls measured up from the place marked at the front/back waist and the floor to waist measured up from the floor to that mark? Not being a smart aleck here, but am trying to understand how the two measurements don't meet if the measurements are done properly. Now I am talking measurements here, not wearing preferences. If they are indeed measured to/from the same point doesn't that mean that the waists for top and bottom should draft to the same point - if they are drafting to the waist? A blouse should draft its waist to that point and then design choices for length should then occur - at least that is how in my perfect world it would make sense to draft. VBG

"The basic point is not that there is any measuring error, but that the waist position of a pair of pants is not necessarily exactly the same as the narrowest part of a dress or blouse. The "waist" of a blouse or dress may be higher than where people hang their pants"

Sorry Bob, I don't think that's correct (IMHO). A waist position is a waist position. We may choose to wear our trousers below our waist position but it doesn't alter where our waist point is.

Surely the place we call our waist and from which we measure is the point at which we want any waist point or indentation point to occur whether it's pants, skirts, blouses or dresses.

Teresa

I am in complete agreement with DLJones, Teresa, and sewinggeek. My waist is my waist. Where I choose to wear my pants can be above, at or below my waist but the actual waist has not changed. Because I now have too much in front for an indention, is no reason to change the measurement. In fact, I have two sets of measurements, one for dresses and one for pants and skirts. Since I need to wear over-blouses now, it made good sense to make myself a measurement set for where I want to wear my waistband but that set would actually disfigure a dress. I still have a good indention at my sides and I want it to stay there and look good.
Bob, the hourglass shape is real on women, even when the sand has shifted some.
I have helped to measure at least 10 women in our group and we all have the same need for the waist to remain where it has been.
Let us keep our waists and let our high waists remain above our real waists. Thanks for working so hard for us.

just looked at the pdf file by Kaaren and am a little boggled. I thought that my waist was my waist no matter what. When measuring is done, isn't the front/back fulls measured up from the place marked at the front/back waist and the floor to waist measured up from the floor to that mark?
That depends ON HOW you emasured the floor to waist straight.
Did you contour it from waist to hip then drop the tape taut to floor, or did you take it several inches out from the body straight from that waist lien to the floor.

Did the mark for the waist line kind of sort of change?

The top measure was contoured over the bust mound from the intersection of neck and shoulder NOT at dead center but offset to that full position..but the f/t w was presumably taken at dead center.

If the waist is tilted that creates even more of a difference.

and that alone is at the front or back of the body at least twoards center.

Yet the waist shaping at side seam is place along a line thats not the same level up from the top.the shoulder is angled down and dropped, the arm hole and tis ease is removed from the side seam the dart take up is added to the length and then the f/tw is measured "how"?

Does the user measure along the curve of the hip in to the dent of the waist line or is that true to a straight line not following any contours of the body.

Following contours makes a longer measure than the simple straight line.

Following contours for pants is sensible..the pants hang off the waist and sit on top of the high hip.

The dress hangs from the shoulders is locked into the arm hole and then drops again.

even at its very most fitted which rarely! is that fitted ie for Formal wear with boning is going to need more length than the shift or more casual fitted blouse even though you want waist shaping.

you don't need as close a duplication of body contours.

and many many of our ladies don't desire a close contour of the curves curves curves including those extra curves.

When the waist tilt is more than 1.5 inches theres a greater chance that the side waist is going to be off for the side seam.

The center of the two waist darts is not at center but close.the side waist dart is more aligned to the side seam.yet we must keep both darts greatest intake at the same level but the waist line itself is on a decided angle from truwe center to true side.

A tilted waist must be accommodated in pants, as they hang off that point.

Does a dress? the answer is yes but not as much.

Depends on the fit level chosen.
Ultra fitted contouring to every possible curve inwards or outwards yes..the sleeke fitted evenign gown.

Not the looser dress which flows from bust to hip with a hint of waist shaping.

The looser the fit the less likely the waist tilt SHOULD be adhered to but modified.

sure we want a true hemline so the tilted pelvis, curved spine needs to be accommodated by giving the high side length and the low side a shorter line.

but does the pot belly, thunder thigh, side "shelf" due to a roll of fluff, or just the thicker center front waist line,or abd line add that much length if the skirt portion of the dress flows over it with a little extra ease add as much length as needed for pants?

Kaaren

A reminder there are THREE waist points measured.
Front
Back both at center
and side

If the f/w is level at all three points I would probably not argue with your statement.

But the waist line from the floor does vary.
Is effected by what hills and valleys it travels over.

The pant waist is effected by the the catch point of the crotchthe dress wont make that side trip.

measure your key board from side to side across the asd line .

now measure it again starting on the desk/table up over the side across the top down the other side to the table top.across the same asd line

the keyboard width is obvious as the first measure.

small discrepency big change in numbers even with a thin laptop keyboard!

but the raise included in the depth is the contoured measure.

How the f/w was measured and where it was measured effects the results.

Kaaren

Before I go on, could someone tell me which patterns in DS are "high waist pants". I know the hollywood pants are, but I am getting confused on this part of discussion that talks about high waist pants and skirts. Actually I would like to know how the highwaist numbers was used before the patch and which patterns it was use on so that I can look at those too.

To me, and I am not the authority on this, waist level on pants fluctuate as much as skirt lengths. I wear all of my pants at the same level, no matter the style. My daughter wears hers at a different level which varies depending the style. So therefore, I think on pants that one would want to have that flexibility.

But I am trying to grasp the waist for shirts and dresses. I think that no matter where you wear your pants waistline then you would want the shirt or jacket to still curve in at natural waist. Too high and it looks empirely like and some may think you are pregnant. Too low and and it looks like a dropped waist style. So I think that blouses and dresses that fall with the indent at the natural waistline look right to the eye.

Or having the highwaist offset number controlling the indent means that all of us can control where we want the curve to fall and give us more flexibility in our choices.

So does this mean that I agree with everybody, pros and cons? I hope you can see my confusion, if I have not already confused everybody else here.
Thanks,
LMF