At present, all pants/skirts waist darts are drafting the correct width only at the CUTTING line. Depending on the seam allowance you happen to use, they are drafting narrower at the STITCHING line. If you happen to select 0 seam allowance, the cutting line and stitching line are the same, and the darts draft correctly to your measurments. If you select default 5/8 or any other seam allowance, the darts will be too narrow at the stitching line and, depending on your measurements, this can result in a little or a lot of extra ease at the waist. Darts should draft the correct width at the STITCHING line regardles of what seam allowance you happen to choose (as do all darts on dresses/tops/jackets).

Bob has acknowledged the problem - but is loath to fix it as it might upset those users who have already managed to adjust their measurements to work around this error. Considering all the other changes that have been done, I can't see this as a valid reason for not correcting a basic drafting error.

I would agree with this. The whole premise of the program is....correct measurements will allow a good fit in any draft. The measurements should drive the program, not the other way around. We can all adjust back to our real measurements if the problem is corrected. Then EVERYTHING will fit, darted or otherwise.

I would also like to see this fixed. We keep being told to look at the SEWING line for accuracy over the cutting line ... but with darts it is the cutting line that gives accuracy??

That's jusr confusing, messy, inaccurate and as far as I'm concerned changing it is worth the temporary inconvenience of having to 'unfudge' measurements.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Dressshopuser,

Soprry.everythign you read is not always accurate. Some really well meanign posts sometimes are misleading.

Stitch liens are correct. Curt lines sometiems wander especial with a tilted waist and the necessarye shaping for the dart caps.

Fold the darts(ON THE MIDLINE matching in and outside dart legs) as they will be stitched and pressed, remark the cut line to a smooth line.
trim away excess paper while the darts are folded.

The books all say the waist dart on poants are pressed in towards center.

With my personal shape I press out towards side seams.


The curve in the waist darts has been removed.it simply didnt work for everybody.
The dart legs have been ammended to make sure they are even lengths even with a tilted waist.

Kaaren

quote:

Stitch liens are correct. Curt lines sometiems wander especial with a tilted waist and the necessarye shaping for the dart caps.

Fold the darts(ON THE MIDLINE matching in and outside dart legs) as they will be stitched and pressed, remark the cut line to a smooth line.
trim away excess paper while the darts are folded.

Try this sequence, Kaaren (and others) and see what you get --
Since I make/wear fitted pants, that is the pattern I used. My front darts are not large, but my back darts are so I used the back fitted pants pattern for comparison.

1. Set your options for 5/8 seam allowance.
2. Draft the fitted pants at default.
3. Print at 100% the waistline portion of your pattern.
4. Clear your screen of patterns.
5. Set your options for 0 seam allowance or change your settings to Never Show Seam Allowances.
6. Draft the fitted pants at default.
7. Print at 100% the waistline portion of your pattern.

8. Now assemble your pattern pieces.

9. If you compare the two pattern pieces from side seam to center back seam they will match. However, if you put them on a light table or hold them up to a window you will see that the darts are different widths and the two patterns between seam lines are not identical.

10. Fold out the darts in each pattern. I also slashed the pattern from the bottom up to the bottom of the dart so that my paper would lie flat.

11. Trim the paper at the waistline on the No - or 0 (zero) seam allowance pattern.

12. Place that pattern on top of the other pattern. Do they match from side seam to center back seam? My don't --

Question -- so which one is drafting pants appropriately to my measurements? Do I know if critical ease is included in the one w/ 5/8" seam allowances or is the smaller one the accurate one? Or is this also up to personal choice as to which draft I want to accept? Neither is exactly the same as the measurement I entered for my Back Waist so I realize that some breathing room is included -- but don't know which draft is depicting that correctly.

Point -- we are not dicussing how the seam allowances themselves draft. That the stitch lines are correct is a given. We are discussing the width of the fitting darts, the take-up amounts, that vary depending upon which seam allowance printing option we have chosen.

Many of us seem to be seeing exactly the same problem, to different degrees depending upon our measurements. Maybe for some it is "only" a total of 1" in the overall waistline of the pants, for others it is signficantly more.

I admit I didn't try it with a standard size measurement set because I don't sew with that, I sew with my measurement set.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Gayle,

Try this sequence, Kaaren (and others) and see what you get --
Since I make/wear fitted pants, that is the pattern I used. My front darts are not large, but my back darts are so I used the back fitted pants pattern for comparison.

Version 6.10 had waist dart changes that are well documented on the what's changed list on the update page.
.

I did several times and helped decid on what changes were needed and Bob ably programmed them in.

I did try just again in 6 differrent size and shaped users charts. (sometimes a fix falls out in the final build...)

the dart with or without seam allowances are spot on. IDENTICAL in full and 1/4 scale sizes.

No differences in width/take up length or position. so its'not choosing one type draft over another.

Better yet...the pant fits.

I have to be able to replicate in order to do something about it.

Kaaren

quote:

Originally posted by Kaaren Hoback:
Try this sequence, Kaaren (and others) and see what you get --
Since I make/wear fitted pants, that is the pattern I used. My front darts are not large, but my back darts are so I used the back fitted pants pattern for comparison.

Version 6.10 had waist dart changes that are well documented on the what's changed list on the update page.
.

I did several times and helped decid on what changes were needed and Bob ably programmed them in.

I did try just again in 6 differrent size and shaped users charts. (sometimes a fix falls out in the final build...)

the dart with or without seam allowances are spot on. IDENTICAL in full and 1/4 scale sizes.

No differences in width/take up length or position. so its'not choosing one type draft over another.

Better yet...the pant fits.

I have to be able to replicate in order to do something about it.

Kaaren

I guess I'll just accept the fact that something another user reported and I was able to easily replicate in my software but you can't replicate means that your version 6.10 works correctly and mine doesn't and hers doesn't either.

Another thought -- are you checking this on the same update that we are or do you have a "souped up" version you're using for development of other patterns?

I'll just know to be extra careful to measure everything at each stage -- design drafting, printing, pattern prep ... and have a sharp pencil handy to fix discrepancies.

FWIW I will submit a problem report. On my measurement set I have a total of 1/2" difference in waist measurement in the back; on a standard size 14 (which I have now printed both ways) I have only a 1/4" difference in the back waist measurment between the two printings.

So to the person who first reported this -- you're not imagining things -- I see it too.

I guess it's better to know to always expect the unexpected ... and plan to double check everything before cutting into the fabric.

Thanks anyway.

This is a cross post from the Lyris list because I'm not sure if Bob is reading there anymore.

Under discussion is that the width of the waist darts change (at the stitching line) depending on whether you have 0 seam allowances or 1" seam allowances.
It is more easily noticeable/measureable on charts which have a large waist/hip measurment difference (ie: pear or A shape bodies) or use RTW 20 and reduce the front waist=15" and back waist=14" then measure the darts with different seam allowances.

In his post (quoted below), Bob acknowledges the problem exists.
My reply (below also) is in response to Bob. (as stated above I don't know if he is still on Lyris and saw my reply)
-----------------

Tessa wrote on Lyris:
Bob, I strongly support that you correct this waist dart issue so the pants sloper and Fitted Pants will draft "as advertised" to the chart measurement with no waist ease (regardless of seam allowance width chosen). At least with the draft corrected we will know that a 26" chart will draft a 26" pants waist and like with all other Dress Shop patterns we can make a personal choice for wear ease after that. We need an accurate draft as a starting point.


Kathy Warner put it very well in her post especially that :
"> People on the lists hear about
> these problems and make workarounds, but new customers will
> just think heck, it doesn't work.

I would say those users currently happy with the draft either have measurements which are less affected by the darting (less waist/ hip measurement differences) so they don't see the problem I and others see or they have fudged their measurements to cope.

Significant changes to the Dress Shop drafts are not unheard of, and with enough warning and coping advice, users will be able to adapt. In December '04 there was a change to the crotch extension split and we were advised to print our pant slopers before the update. In the 6.10 update there was a change to the Across Back flag with only a note in the List of Changes (easily missed or not understood by a lot of users) and then Kaaren posted some corrections on Groupee.

I suggest that when this (proposed) change (might) come into effect you have a pop-up message before the download advising users of the change and to print a copy of their pants before installing the update.

Regards
Tessa

quote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DressShopBob@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 7/14/2005 2:13:49 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> segroves@texoma.net writes:
>
> Has the waist ease/no seam allowance been fixed? It would
> sure be helpful
> since a number of us must leave off the seam allowance, thus
> impacting the
> dart widths , if I understand the problem correctly.
> ------------------
>
>
>
> This change has not yet been made. I agree that the problem
> exists. But, I
> also believe that if we make this change, the fit of every
> pants pattern
> produced by Dress Shop will change for every user. And, my
> experience with any
> change that effects both slopers and that many patterns is
> that many, many users
> will be unhappy that we did the change.
>
> I'll see if I can figure out a way to make this a user
> selectable option,
> possibly something on the Settings dialog. One of those
> "choose it once and the
> program remembers forever" type selections, perhaps.
>
> - Bob Clardy

Super! Just read that this issue is being addressed. Thanks Bob.
testing updates Pant waist darts, princess