Was having fun yesterday playing with my tools but have a question about the Fit Tool.

BTW I did read the Fit Tool Help File and found some good nuggets of info in there

Question -- Is the only difference between the Standard Fit and the Casual Fit the amounts of ease shown in the boxes?

In other words, if we were to put those same Casual Fit ease numbers into the Standard Fit draft -- would we be cloning the Casual Fit draft?

Thanks

I also meant to ask --

I know we can't use the "show sloper" feature when we are also using the Fit Tool because it causes havoc with the ease amounts. It seems I read something where showing the Reference Lines/Amounts will do this, too.

My computer appears confused and I think that may be the reason. Is this correct?

The fit tool is very interesting in that you can take any one pattern and change it by a single click to a proportionate fit for very close, close, std, casual or comfort fit levels.

Those are all default ease positions which you may still wish by personal preference to alter slightly.

Very close of course requires something with spandex as it has a significant amount of Negative Ease, where the casual fit is a more "relaxed" version of standard fit and comfort is a much looser kind fo "unfitted" silhouette.

So each and every pattern is available in the 5 different fit levels.( 5 fer 1.not bad!)

What I mean by proportionate is that the sleeve fit will be comparable to the torso fit....no one wants a std fitting sleeve on a comfort fit bodice.It would look and feel strange.

All that being said know that the silhouette or design you choose also has ease.A jacket is looser than a fitted blouse so it CAN be worn over a blouse .

After getting good measurements there are still two very important things you must understand, know about and make decisions about.

1. Where are you starting.
2 where do you want to go

The easiest way to get there is map some favorite garments.

Measure off the favorite blouse/jacket/dress/bathing suit at key body spots: bust, waist, abd and hip, bicep, elbow and wrist, neck depth width, hem position.

Then select the silhouette you desire and with both grid and reference lines on print a quarter scale.

Remember two things.1:4 scale on a half a front,or half a back means that a mere 1/16th inch = a full inch in full scale on totals! so measure carefully with a good ruler...on line measuring devices are OK for quick checks but a printed page with a great ruler are required for ultimate accuracy ( especially when measuring on a diagonal.)

Now you are actually measuring the piece which contains both the wear and design ease but also the collateral ease which is ease added to smooth the pattern curves and assure that the pattern CAN sew together.

Remember collateral ease is added as the pattern redrafts multiple times after the "assigned" or called for ease computation is made and is NOT reflected in the on screen ease numbers.

If the bicep on the favorite garment is 14.625 and the bicep on your default std fit is 14.5 maybe that 1/8th inch is unimportant.......BUT if the difference is 1/2 an inch you might wish to adjust it.

IF the neck depth on your favorite V neck blouse is x and you are getting Y.You can quickly and easily adjust it!

ALL too often the biggest problem even with a good meaurement set is NOT KNOWING where you want to go!

The program MUST start somewhere for each pattern draft and that starting point is "default" and default is what the designer thinks will work for a massive number of people all with different shapes and sizes.NOT YOURS ( or even her) particular favorite.


I do not design in my chart..that would be unfair to anyone with a trim waist, bigger bust, or for that matter anyone over 5'1/2" tall.gggggggggg so I design in a selected chart then cross check it in a variety ( full dozen) charts representing small- petite, to tall- well filled out to make sure the starting point "works" for MOST.

"Works" may not be ideal for YOU.

That is exacty why all the user defined tools are there for your use.

Now is all that planning and decsion making necessary?


Making a quick pair of boxers for DH or son.maybe not..making a silk blouse or cashmere jacket you just mortgaged the house to buy the fabric for....or plan on spending a couple hours designing setting up embroidery on a nice rayon.....gosh YES.

and I'll bet dollars to donuts less than 10% of our users KNOW where they want to go.

Making an assumption the program will decipher your personal FIT desire is like planning a space shuttle flight and the only data you have is shooting the rocket upwards.....

Your CAN adjust your design before you print a full size pattern to get exactly what you desire.....the tools are there....


Hope this all helps!
Kaaren

quote:

Originally posted by Kaaren Hoback:
The fit tool is very interesting in that you can take any one pattern and change it by a single click to a proportionate fit for very close, close, std, casual or comfort fit levels.

<snip>
So each and every pattern is available in the 5 different fit levels.( 5 fer 1.not bad!)

<snip>

Hope this all helps!
Kaaren

wow! what a lot of information!

but my question was actually much simpler ... I was wondering if the Fit Tool was telling us all the changes it was making from one fit to the other ... and if we put those changes in manually would we get the same result? Figured out -- no it doesn't so no we won't

Here are some more details specific to the pattern I was working with -- I was drafting a pair of pants using Slim Fit Pants -- the muslin at default fit perfectly, but a little more snuggly than I wanted in the torso

so I tried the Casual Fit and saw that it was adding 1.042" to abs and 1.083" to hips and thought that might be just enough to avoid VPL (visible panty lines)

my resultant pants are too baggy (didn't make a trial pair because I thought all that would be different would be that ab/hip ease -- plus the 1" at knee and 1" at ankle)and so I didn't know if it was the fabric choice. Figured an inch distributed around my body wouldn't be too much.

what I've since seen is that when I put those same Casual Fit ease amounts into the boxes when asking for Standard Fit I get a different pant drafting than when I click on Casual Fit -- that's what prompted my question

While I was waiting to see it posted on the board I kept trying to figure out the actual differences between the draft. Next I checked the ease amounts w/ reference lines when outside of the fit tool.

I found that Casual Fit actually adds almost 1 3/4" thigh ease that hadn't been indicated in the Fit Tool boxes. That's where the baggy came from -- each thigh got almost twice the ease as either the ab or the hips. Not what I expected.

Then I thought maybe aha -- this thigh ease is that resultant ease I was reading about ... but I can avoid it by drafting the Standard Fit using the Casual Fit ease for abs & hips -- so that's what I will try next.

Not knowing about that unreported thigh ease made a big difference in my pants.

but now your response prompts a new question -- 5 levels of fit? My Fit Tool only gives me 4 -- No Design Ease, Standard Fit, Casual Fit, and Comfort Fit. How do I ask for Very Close or Close fit?

Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Gayle:
I know we can't use the "show sloper" feature when we are also using the Fit Tool because it causes havoc with the ease amounts. It seems I read something where showing the Reference Lines/Amounts will do this, too.

Correct, you should not have reference lines displayed when you go to the Fit/Ease Tool.

For example on a RTW12 Fitted Blazer if I have reference lines and amounts displayed, the back bust ease shows as 2.625" but the Fit Tool shows it as 3.458". If I remove the reference lines and go back to Fit Tool the back bust ease is now 2.583". The Fit Tool numbers and reference amounts don't always match exactly (eg: waists) but your ultimate check should be measured on a 50% or full size print out (minus dart widths).

quote:

Originally posted by InspiredSewing:
Correct, you should not have reference lines displayed when you go to the Fit/Ease Tool.

That's what I thought.

FWIW In the Help File for the Fit Tool, under "What is The fit tool and how does it function?" the statement is made

"I suggest you always chose to have ON your reference lines on and amounts."

I guess that needs to be revised to "Never have your reference lines displayed when working in the Fit Tool."

What a shame that it can't work that way.

It seems I read something where showing the Reference Lines/Amounts will do this, too.

I use the lines and amounts features all the time KNOWING that collateral ease in not included in the asmounts shown!
Kaaren

The Fit Tool help file states that the Slim Fit Pant uses the lower leg measurements -- specifically thigh and calf.

A statement is made "For thorough control over the fit along the entire leg, you need to work with the Slim Fit pants and its relatives (leggings, tights, boot cut pants, bell-bottoms, and bicycle pants)" and "The width of the measurement lines at thigh and calf control the shaping of the outseam between them."

So is there any way to make calf ease adjustments? I see Thigh Ease in the Fit Tool but no place to adjust the calf fit.

quote:

Originally posted by Board Administrator:
I use the lines and amounts features all the time KNOWING that collateral ease in not included in the asmounts shown!
Kaaren

If only it were that simple.

When I have the reference lines on and try using the Fit Tool it is apparent that numbers start sticking all over the place and you can't even revert to default numbers -- even No Design Ease won't clear back to all 0's. I can't trust any of the numbers in the Fit Tool and so don't know what numbers to enter if I want to make a specific change.

So I think it's better if I just follow the other advice to not try to combine the Fit Tool with the Reference Lines and save myself a lot of confusion. That post seems to subtantiate the same type of situation I'm seeing that isn't related to collateral ease.

The Help File for the Fit Tool says "It was created in a moment of brilliance and it performs beyond expectations." -- I will agree that it goes outside of what I am expecting -- but am glad it will work as I expect (and can understand) if I don't use the Reference Lines at the same time.

quote:

That's what I thought.

FWIW In the Help File for the Fit Tool, under "What is The fit tool and how does it function?" the statement is made

"I suggest you always chose to have ON your reference lines on and amounts."

I guess that needs to be revised to "Never have your reference lines displayed when working in the Fit Tool."

What a shame that it can't work that way.

I am not aware that the Fit Tool is at all effected by reference lines being on or off. I always have them on when I work with that tool.

quote:

Originally posted by DressShopBob:
I am not aware that the Fit Tool is at all effected by reference lines being on or off. I always have them on when I work with that tool.

I can submit a problem report but it seems to happen with any pattern and any measurement set. And it does affect the numbers in the boxes in the Fit Tool.

Try this: Misses RTW Size 12; Fitted Pants

First, do NOT have on reference lines and go into the Fit Tool. It will be on Standard Fit and all Ease amounts will be 0. I'll give you all the details I see and if we're both using RTW 12 we should see the same things.

(all amounts are in inches)
In Casual Fit:
0.917" Abs
0.958" Hips
1" Knee
1" Ankle

Go to Comfort Fit:
1.833 Abs
2.0 Hips
2 Knees
2 Ankle

go back and forth among the options (I have 4 -- No Design Ease, Standard, Casual, and Comfort) and these numbers are consistently shown as listed above -- any number of changes from one to another, in any order.

Now, turn on the Reference Lines (seems to be the same with or without Amounts)

Standard is 0 ease but the rest are different in abs & hips:

Casual
1.833 Abs (coincidentally the Comfort Fit ease w/o ref lines)
1.958 Hips (conicidentally 1" greater than Casual ease w/o ref lines)
1 knee (same as w/o lines)
1 ankle (same as w/o lines)

Comfort
3.667 Abs
4.0 Hips
2.0 knee
2.0 ankle

Looks like the boxes are doubling the actual measurements for Abs and Hips. In the last example if you looked at the draft and decided it had too much hip ease and decided to change it to 3", when you enter that number in the box you would actual INCREASE the hips because you aren't going from 4" ease down to 3" -- you are going from 2" in reality up to 3". So you need to be adding the numbers shown on the right (which may not include collateral ease) to see what you have. Then you have to decide what you want ... double it ... and then enter than number into the box to get what you really want.

Try it with Misses RTW 12 in a Fitted Blouse -- Shell. Same result. I won't write down all my numbers here, there are so many. And more than just abs & hips seem to be off.


This is very confusing to anyone trying to use this as a "let's see what happens" learning tool because cause-and-effect don't seem to be properly linked.

quote:

Looks like the boxes are doubling the actual measurements for Abs and Hips. In the last example if you looked at the draft and decided it had too much hip ease and decided to change it to 3", when you enter that number in the box you would actual INCREASE the hips because you aren't going from 4" ease down to 3" -- you are going from 2" in reality up to 3". So you need to be adding the numbers shown on the right (which may not include collateral ease) to see what you have. Then you have to decide what you want ... double it ... and then enter than number into the box to get what you really want.

Try it with Misses RTW 12 in a Fitted Blouse -- Shell. Same result. I won't write down all my numbers here, there are so many. And more than just abs & hips seem to be off.


This is very confusing to anyone trying to use this as a "let's see what happens" learning tool because cause-and-effect don't seem to be properly linked.

Excellent report, Gayle. Yes, I see that behavior. It happens if you turn the reference lines on and off while viewing the Fit Tool. The values without the reference lines are the correct ones, so the advice that Tessa gave earlier (leave those off while using the Fit Tool) is safest till the fixed version is released. This has now been corrected for the next update.

Thanks for the detailed procedure to see the problem....

The numbers in the fit tool boxes are not end result numbers.

The pattern measurements are what is of concern.

As I have said before I do use the reference lines and also the grid.My RESULTS are as expected.

Kaaren

Good grief, I'm getting more confused by the minute as I read the posts on this topic.
Kaaren aggrees there is a problem with having the ref lines on when using the fit tool and Bob isn't aware of a problem.
Gayle has a lot of evidence that there is a problem.
I love having the reference lines and numbers, but it is the pits if they aren't correct.

Do we, or do we not have this feature and does it work correctly or not??

Do I have this totally wrong in my mind?

I'm not trying to be a pain, just trying to get it clear in my head. Please lay it out clearly for those of us who obviously need pictures.
thanks,k

quote:

The numbers in the fit tool boxes are not end result numbers.

The pattern measurements are what is of concern.

As I have said before I do use the reference lines and also the grid.My RESULTS are as expected.

But even though the Fit Tool boxes are not the end-result numbers, shouldn't they be the same whether or not the Reference Lines are turned on?

I'm trying to figure out how you work with the Fit Tool with the Ref lines on. Let's start with a Misses RTW 12 fitted pant.

1. Ok I accept that the numbers in the Fit Tool are slightly off from the actual tern because of collateral ease. I'll even accept for now that the Fit Tool disagrees with itself when Ref Lines are either on or off.

2. I'm presuming that what the screen on the right (the drafted pattern) is reporting is correct. It at least is consistent with itself with or without reference lines on.


3. For example's sake, say you're looking at the fitted pant hip in casual fit. Instead of looking at the numbers in the box in the fit tool, you look at the tiny numbers on the pattern and add them together to see what the real ease is. Right? Ok -- 0.458" + 0.542" = 1" ease even though the box in the Fit Tool says 1.958". Ignore the Fit Tool. But say for some reason you want 2" ease in the hips and not 1" -- what do you enter in the box in the Fit Tool? 2"? When I do that and look at the actual ease amounts on the pattern I still see 0.458" + 0.542" which is the original 1" ease. So now do I just start entering numbers to see what will give me the 2' desired ease?

So, hmmm, if 2" is giving me 1" and I want 2", maybe I'll double it and ask for 4". Nope. That gives me 1.458" + 1.542" or 3" ease. I overshot it. Let's try 3" in the box -- 0.958" + 1.042" = 2" voila! So it must be off by 1". Will this be consistent for all measurement sets/patterns or just for this one?

Or is it only my Fit Tool that behaves this way?