More questions! I'm struggling to understand what I'm seeing at default so that I know what changes I want to make.

Under my View menu, I've turned on Reference Lines and Reference Amounts.

What exactly do the lines show? I remember a long time ago there being lots of discussion about these lines and I thought I understood them. But of course, now I'm taking a closer look and am confused. The help file talks about dashed and solid lines but I see solid lines in two different colors. I can't find anything that explains them.

I think that one reference line (the shorter of the two lines) represents the actual body measurement and the other reference line (the longer line) represents the actual body measurement plus ease. Is this correct?

What exactly does the measurement amount that is listed represent? I would have thought it was the actual body measurement + ease (if ease is added). Is that correct?

Here's why I'm confused. I'm looking at Misses RTW 12 chart. I'm comparing two pairs of pants (Slim Fit Pant and Fitted Pants) at default along with the RTW 12 measurement chart.

For the abs & hips -- the measurements correlate exactly with the reference lines and the measurement chart. For both patterns that I'm comparing as well as the measurement chart, the front ab is 18.5", the back ab is 18.5", the front hip is 19.625" or 19.63", and the back hip is 20.375" or 20.38".

I understand why the lines may or may not go to the seam lines (that's where collateral ease comes in, right?). And I see that there are definite gaps that relate to design ease for the patterns. The garment in all cases is bigger than the reference lines. That's NOT my question.

For the thighs, knees, and calves, the measurements don't match from one pattern to another and none of them match the measurement chart. So that makes me think that the lines are something else (not actual body measurement) or the printed measurements are something else. If so, what are they?

FYI -- here are the other numbers I'm getting and why I am confused:
RTW 12 thigh measurement is 23.5
RTW 12 mid-thigh measurement is 21

Slim Fit Pants, RTW 12 -- default -- reference line for thigh says 11.08 in front and 11.92 in back. This adds up to 23.
Fitted Pants, RTW 12 - default -- reference line for thigh says 10.098 in front and 10.83 in back. This adds up to 20.91
I guess the thigh measurement is a blend of the two measurements ... but why wouldn't the numbers be the same for both patterns if they represent actual body measurement?

Per the measurement chart, the knee is 15"
Slim Fit Pant, RTW 12 - default -- reference line for knee says 8.50" + 0.532" of ease in front and 9.08" + 0.568" of ease in back for a total of 17.58" + 1.0" of ease; even if the ease were included that would be 16.58"
Fitted Pants, RTW 12 - default -- reference line for knee says 7.25" in front and 7.6" in back for a total of 14.85"; there is no + ease amount for this style of pants

Per the measurement chart, the calf is 14.5"
Slim Fit Pant, RTW 12 - default - reference line for calf says 8.17" + 0.531" of ease in the front and 8.75" + 0.568" of ease in the back for a total of 16.92" + 0.568" of ease
Fitted Pant has no reference lines for the calf

I'm not trying to compare the Slim Fit Pant with the Fitted Pant -- I'm trying to understand what the Reference Lines and Reference Amounts mean and thought if I could see some similarities on each pattern I could deduce the answer.

Thanks for any light bulb you can turn on for me. I tried looking for help in the manual but couldn't find answers to the above questions. Once I understand exactly what I'm seeing I'll be able to move forward designing the pair of pants that I'm wanting.

Reference lines:
the Gold/tan line depending on your monitor is your chart number.
The burple line is chart plus the wear and design ease.
Anything past the bruple line AFTER removing the dart take up amounts is additional ease which for lack of a better term is collateral ease.

The numbers reflected in the fit tool are the initial called for ease before the smoothing activities take place.

COUNT GRID.

IF the waist for instance ease line (burple) stops 2 boxes before it hits side seam count off the width of any dart take up and subtract that from the total. IF you still ahve left over ease its collateral ease.

I use a seam gauge with the handy little slider.

Measure from center to outer dart leg, then start at inner dart leg measure across to next dart leg jump the take up and continue to the side seam.

Take that measured number multiply by 4 and you have 1/2 of the front waist. To get a full front measurement at that point multiply by 8 instead of 4.


The measurement reference lines are for a quick check.

If you know you have a dart take up ( measured) of 1 waist dart thats 1.5 inches and you can see the waist 1/2 front is 11 the waist is reading 22 inches for front less 3 inches for dart. you have an absolute to deal with. A garment waist front of 19 inches. compare to chart waist.

Repeat for back.if the back waist =x minus dart = true back garment waist add the true back to true front and get true garment waist.


ie back reads 9 on the half pattern less 2 for darting 9x2=18 minus 4 = 14

so this diva has a 19 inch front 14 inch back for a garment total of 33. Compared to a true combined front and back waist at chart of 29 net result 4 inches of ease.

repeat for abd and hip and bust.

Now knowing the waist is getting a total actual ease of 4 inches.....measure something you adore.or think you want...... lets say it measures 28 at waist.

LOOK at the proportion of front and back waist.

where do you want to remove that ease.....not all at front or all at back but maybe NOT 50/50

I personally would remove 5/8th front 3/8th back..so look at the number in the ease box on the fit tool, reduce the front number by 5/8th and the back number by 3/8th and click redraft.

Note that the darting may increase and very little change may occur at the side seams.but remeasure the beast.

YOU MIGHT get exactly what you asked for.and you might get soemthing slightly different.... why cause collateral ease and smoothing doesnt turn off because you made an adjustment.

when to fret: when the change is not reflected ON the pattern by a big amount big being more than a 1/8th inch of what you expected to happen. dont fret the hundredths or a tenth.I use decimals and inches that reads 1.125 or 1 and 1/8th or 1 and 125 100ths.
take a bit more or less off the "offending side"

I have been sewing a long long time..I can keep things sewing smoothly to within an 1/8th when I am paying attention but to within 1/16th..???

or 1/ 32nd ?? rofl.thinking about it never to 1/100ths.

Sometimes I deliberatly increase my seam allowance while sewing to sew a smoother curve.
Sometimes I curve a dart DELIBERATLY cause I know it wears better.(French darts in particular)

If I am being super picky I might chalk mark a seam allowance before sewing in a specific spot . If Im being super super picky I might hand baste an dart or seam line.

I don't think Ive ever finished the PERFECT garment. That doesnt have some itty bitty thing I wouldnt change....that no one would ever ever notice and I cant find it if I walk away from the garment for a day.

and If I did finish the perfect garment ever that would include some "fix" to my bodys assymetry with out putting a neon light on the fact Im assymetric.

I am NO model.Im short and plump and almost 60..I have a long torso for a short person, a slight shoulder height difference, very long arms, smaller around than proportion extremities to my torso.

I have described myself as an olive with toothpick arms and legs.

I guess what Im trying to say is cut yourself a break....learn what you can, do what you can, improve all your skills as you go but dont obsess over mini fractions.

Kaaren

Gayle,
Thank you for spending so much time on this problem. It has been a question in my mind for some time now, but my lack of confidence with things "computer" prevented me from asking anyone what was going on. I even have an added problem of when using the Fit Tool ( which I thought was the " do all and be all" of tweaking ) and the Reference Lines and Amounts, the lines and amounts will disappear when I make choices in the Fit Tool. I have to reapply the Lines and Amounts and start again. This happens everytime I use the Fit Tool.

Since learning about the grids, I keep them turned on and have learned to count the squares rather than depend upon what the Lines and Amounts and the Fit Tool tell me. Did we have to pay extra for the Fit Tool?

Kelly

quote:

Reference lines:
the Gold/tan line depending on your monitor is your chart number.
The burple line is chart plus the wear and design ease.
Anything past the bruple line AFTER removing the dart take up amounts is additional ease which for lack of a better term is collateral ease.

The numbers reflected in the fit tool are the initial called for ease before the smoothing activities take place.

Well, gee. My Reference Lines are blue and magenta. So I'll just figure the shorter is my chart number and the longer is the chart plus ease.

I guess I wasn't clear that I'm not using the Fit Tool -- I'm just showing the Reference Lines and Reference Amounts on the design screen.

And I'm trying to understand what those numbers are that I'm seeing. I'm not even trying to learn how to work with them at this point.

I'm trying to learn if they are a meaningful number -- what are they trying to tell me? If I have to count grids and use a ruler ... why have that option to give me any numbers at all?

I guess I want those numbers to match the chart and they aren't. And since they don't ... what are they?

Please use a Misses RTW Size 12 and either Fitted Pants or Slim Fit Pants to give an example -- then I can print out the explanation and look on my screen to see if a light bulb will finally go on.

And I wasn't even looking at the waist/abs/hips since those seemed to match the chart. So darts aren't involved. What's really confusing me are the numbers (again on Design screen NOT in Fit Tool) for the thigh, knee, waist, and ankle.

Thanks.

Doesnt matter if you are using the Fit tool or just the amounts with reference lines.

The numbers are the original called for numbers prior to collateral ease.

They are relevant more to someone who uses the program like me or a programmer than they are for someone expecting they are total ease.

They are the ease allowances that drew that block prior to smoothing.

Adjusting them up or down gives you the result you want.

They give you the "step" to get in the front door.

Want what they give use it as default.
Want more or less you have a starting point to determine where you want to go Its like a map.the block with no ease, turns right at the added numerical ease value, proceeds down the road east during the redraft during the smooth process and ends up at a destination.

They were never meant to be a total of the final finished product after its redraft redraft redraft to smooth....they do not measure THAT.They report only what numbers were added to the chart to get this result.

If you find that totally confusing.Thats OK....dont use the amounts!

If you want to know what numbers were called for to get the default result...then you can make a decision up or down to get what you want.

The tool is working as it was planned to, the reference lines and amounts are working as they were designed to.

Bob and I have had numerous conversations about this.

I wanted them to stay. as knowing what was added to get this result gives me a starting point to add or subtract to.

Kaaren

quote:

The numbers are the original called for numbers prior to collateral ease.

I was just trying to figure out where they came from since they don't seem to be coming from the chart (except the waist, abs, and hips DO match the chart). The can't be coming from the chart or they would be the same for any pattern called up in with those chart measurements (or I think they should).

Misses RTW 12
Chart says knee is 15"

If I look at Fitted Pants it says Front Knee 7.25" and Back Knee 7.67". When I add those together it is 14.92" (and RTW 12 chart is 15" knee).

If I look at Slim Fit Pants it says Front Knee 8.50" + 0.532" of ease (so 9.032"?) and Back Knee 9.08" + 0.568" of ease (so 9.648" ???). When I add front & back together I get 17.58" + 1.1" of ease. (RTW 12 chart is only a 15" knee so it obviously isn't reporting body measurement.) And that's before the collateral ease. I wanted to know where the 8.50" and the 9.08" originates.

I do get that additional ease is added to both ends of the Reference Lines (to smooth the seam line, to get from Point A to Point B, to meet the design ease, etc.) over and above the 8.50" + 0.532"). I'm not questioning that at all.

I just want to know that when I put any pattern up on the screen and turn on Reference Amounts and see "Back Knee 9.08" + 0.532" of ease" I'll be able to attach some significance to those numbers. Before, I thought that the 9.08" was reporting the back portion of the chart number and then I was just looking at the reference lines to see how much additional ease was on either end of the lines.

So -- I'm not going to use the Reference Amounts anymore since I obviously still don't know what they are or where they came from. I'll use the reference lines as a vertical indication of where the knee, calf, etc. are, but I'll count grid squares or measure a 25% printout and then compare to the actual chart measurement to see if I'm getting the amount of ease that I want.

Then I'll open the Fit Tool and start adding ease or adding negative ease to get the size leg I'm wanting/needing.

Right?

Gayle

The shorter line is chart
Ie
"fitted shirt"
look at hip count grid
it should be 1/2 of hip front

on my case hip front is 22 I get 11 grid boxes or 11 inches.

the longer line is hip plus design/wear ease.
the extra space between it and outseam is draft/collateral ease.

The MAIN blessing of the reference lines is a mapping position.where waist is on the vertical/where knee is on the vertical.

If you elect to make a blouse neck 10 inches deep versus 6 where is that in relation to the bust.

If you want to add or subtract length to a blouse ypu have a reference point. Ending a blouse for anyone with a bit of a "pot" at abd should not put the hem at abd....it allows you to avoid that wide spot in the road.

Kaaren

quote:

The shorter line is chart
<snip>
the longer line is hip plus design/wear ease.

Ok light bulb is on ... because I decided to quit comparing just the Slim Fit Pant (which is what I want to make) and the Fitted Pant. When I compare lots of other patterns in Misses RTW size 12 the Reference Amount DOES correlate to the chart.

Problem - the Slim Fit Pants and the Boot Cut Pants are reporting something different than all the other pants.

I was just using the Fitted Pants because I've made that successfully in the past and the Slim Fit Pants because I want to make a pair.

I'll submit a problem report now that I know that the bold line IS supposed to be the chart measurement and that the Reference Amount should be pretty close (and not 1 5/8" larger).

Next time I'll try to be more clear which patterns I'm using.