I have just discovered a problem. The last shirt I made was a fitted shirt (6.05/I re-use the pattern many times). I wanted a different style, so chose: (current build 6.13)

blouse/casual blouse/casual shirt

Results from first try:

I had too much back sleeve to ease in the armhole.
Measurements:
Chose .75 cap ease
Pattern said .79
I measured the sleeve and the bodice armhole
I have .75 to ease into the back and .5 to ease into the front
Total ease of 1.25 (not exactly .75) and way too much to ease in between back notches and top notch.

--
A friend suggested it might be the order of things, meaning I had chosen the sleeve ease; then chose the comfort fit which erased the cap ease. I could not remember what order I did things, so I did another to test.

Results of Number two making sure I chose the comfort fit and then changed the sleeve ease:

Pattern says .79 (just like the first one/but there is definitely more)
However, the measurements are:

back armhole from side seam to top notch is
11
front armhole from side seam to top notch is 11.5

Total 22.5

Sleeve of shirt:

back 12
front 11.5

total 23.5

Instead of the .75 I asked for I now have 1" ease, which is better than the first shirt, but still not what I asked for. I now have .5 on the front and .5 on the back to ease in.

Is this a known problem? Is there a known order one should be choosing to make changes?

I naturally assumed since my past shirts were perfected that I could just make another one with the current build. Obviously not so.

I do compare .25 scale patterns after each build, but slopers do not have any changes, so I thought all was well.......not.

If we ask for .75 ease why do we get more?
I now have a beautiful shirt with a bubble of gathers at the back of the sleeve.

Did you adjust anything else, such as bicep ease or cap height?

This is a delicate balancing act.changing one thing does in fact change others.

Example:
less cap ease, less cap height,
more/less bicep ease also effects cap height and or cap ease.

Kaaren

quote:

Originally posted by Kaaren Hoback:
This is a delicate balancing act.changing one thing does in fact change others.

But why would her printed pattern say .79" ease and then when she actually measures it find she has 1.25" actual sleeve cap to ease?

Kaaren

The ONLY thing I changed was the cap ease from default to .75, which I always do. Everything else was default.

But why would her printed pattern say .79" ease and then when she actually measures it find she has 1.25" actual sleeve cap to ease?

Im not sure what order thinsg were done in.
Lets say she also changes bicep ease and or cap height. The program can force all changes at one time.the sleeve will not draft properly.

You can not get a HIGH cap height, large bicep ease and limited cap ease. Contradictory instructiosn get ignored.
Raise the cap either reduces bicep ease and or increase cap ease.

Wheres the "length" come from or go to?

Increasing the bicep ease will lengthen the cap length...thr cap height has to go down to maintain cap ease.

I wish this was sinmpler to explain..I cant seem to do it with just words.it needs graphics.

Kaaren

As I said in my original post and a follow up post. the ONLY thing I changed was fit to comfort and cap ease to .75.

quote:

But why would her printed pattern say .79" ease and then when she actually measures it find she has 1.25" actual sleeve cap to ease?

Im not sure what order thinsg were done in.
Lets say she also changes bicep ease and or cap height. The program can force all changes at one time.the sleeve will not draft properly.

You can not get a HIGH cap height, large bicep ease and limited cap ease. Contradictory instructiosn get ignored.
Raise the cap either reduces bicep ease and or increase cap ease.

Wheres the "length" come from or go to?

Increasing the bicep ease will lengthen the cap length...thr cap height has to go down to maintain cap ease.

I wish this was sinmpler to explain..I cant seem to do it with just words.it needs graphics.

I'll add a bit to this, but I agree with Kaaren that it is very difficult to explain. The most important thing you need to realize, though, is that there are some parts of a pattern that can be drafted exactly to what you ask for and there are other parts where that may not be possible. There are many examples, but I'll confine this note to the sleeve cap.

The sleeve cap is incredibly complicated. The width of the bottom of the cap is determined by dozens of factors. But, the most important is bicep measurement plus bicep design ease plus wear-over ease (for coats and jackets) plus user supplied bicep wear ease. Add all of those together and you get the requested bicep width.

Does the sleeve draft to that? Maybe. Sometimes not. There's more.

Next, we have cap height. That is determined by many things, the most important of which is armhole depth. Add to that armhole ease. Subtract shoulder extension. Now, you have an approximate cap height. Does that sleeve draft to that? Maybe. Sometimes not. There's more.

The sleeve cap curve must be sewn to the combined front and back armhole curves. The length must match. The amounts involved here are front armhole length (controlled by bust measurements, armhole depth, shoulder position, and across chest plus ease added to any of those). To that, we add back armhole curve length (controlled by back shoulder, back armhole depth, back bust, across back, and the ease amounts for all of those). Once these two are added, we then add sleeve cap ease to that.

The result of all of this is the cap curve length. Now, we have the width of that curve, we have the height of that curve, and we have the target length of that curve. Can that be drafted? Sometimes. Sometimes not. It is very easy to make an impossible case. Curve length is too short to reach the height requested or the width requested. So, there is a choice. Should the program hit the requested height anyway? That will effectively add more cap ease.

At this point, some compromise is required. Change resultant cap ease? Change cap height? Change effective bicep ease? Those are the tradeoffs.

Dress Shop tries to keep cap ease fixed and adjust whatever else is needed to make that curve sewable. That means that the requested bicep ease may not be what you get. Or, the desired cap height may not be possible.

What you get is something that will sew together and something that should fit. But, if you insist on some particular cap height or bicep ease amount, then something else will have to change.

What should change? Well, look at the list above. Front or back bust. Front or back bust ease. Across Chest or Across Back or back ease. Armhole depth or ease. Shoulder extension. Cap ease.

Changing any of these might change your sleeve cap. Might not. Many sleeves can be drafted meeting all of the requests. It is only if the combination of measurements and ease amounts just cannot work that you get compromises.

Bob

I appreciate your explanation of what is happening. It all makes sense.

BUT... I did NOT change anything, but the cap ease. I've always changed the cap ease, because, in my personal opinion 1.5 is too much). I can live with 1/8" diffrence (.79 insted of .75). It is the EXTRA 1.25 that is killing me, especially when it is ALL in the back.

This was NOT a problem for me in earlier versions.

quote:

I appreciate your explanation of what is happening. It all makes sense.

BUT... I did NOT change anything, but the cap ease. I've always changed the cap ease, because, in my personal opinion 1.5 is too much). I can live with 1/8" diffrence (.79 insted of .75). It is the EXTRA 1.25 that is killing me, especially when it is ALL in the back.

This was NOT a problem for me in earlier versions.

I'm sorry, Kay, but I don't know. But, there are always two possible causes of any change in how a pattern drafts. They are:

1. Something in the program changed.
2. Something in your measurements changed.

I'm not aware of anything in the program that should have changed the sleeve cap ease of a blouse recently. And, that type of change is usually followed by an immediate flood of reports and posts. There have not been any others that I am aware of.

There are many things in your own measurements that might have done what you are seeing. Are you sure that you are using exactly the same measurements now that you used before?

One other related question. You mentioned that 1.5" of cap ease was too much. Could be. But, that amount is what a large number of users try to get. That is a desirable target amount for many users and many garments. But, I'll have to let other sewers comment on which amount is preferred and why.

I know Gayle posted today on this subject with similar problems after she did a check once she saw my post. Maybe it hasn't been noticed by most users. It took me a long time to discover this, because I've been using the same printed pattern since 6.05. I just happened to want a new print, which is why I figured it was right and sewed it. Most everyone I know, that sews, prefers .75. The .75 just gives a more professional (less homemade) look. I'm not arguing with that anyway as long as I can change it to my liking.

I am using the same measurements I've been using for the last two years.

If I were a new user and had this problem I would assume it was my measurements, and probably tweaking the heck out of them trying to get it right, but since I've been using the program forever and have had a great sleeve fit in the past I know what it should be. I'm sorry. I'm a member of the "fit snob group". I've had a great fit and I want it again.

As it is drafting now, I will not do another shirt and I need more shirts.

quote:

One other related question. You mentioned that 1.5" of cap ease was too much. Could be. But, that amount is what a large number of users try to get. That is a desirable target amount for many users and many garments. But, I'll have to let other sewers comment on which amount is preferred and why.


DressShopBob
(Bob Clardy)

Kay and Bob,

1.5 is more sleeve fabric than I can reasonably set in the armseye in any of the fabrics I work with. My preference is .75 to .95 depending on the fabric and the amount of shrinkage I can get when shaping the sleeve. I often have to take pencil to sleeve to get back sleeve to fit in.

Caroline

I always set sleeve ease to .75. I can live with a few points difference (usually reads .79) but I also have problems with the back of the sleeve having too much ease.


I would prefer the default to be .75. Unfortunately I am tall with long arms and need all the sleeve height plus 16 inch biceps and need the 2 inch ease. I have problems getting DS to draft a tall enough and still give me the bicep ease I need.

Liz

I prefer .75 ease, but can live with 1.5 as long as I have the OPTION to change it and have it change correctly. The problem I have a hard time with is when the program puts the ease all in one spot (like the back).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kay:
I know Gayle posted today on this subject with similar problems after she did a check once she saw my post. /QUOTE]



Actually I emailed Kay privately and told her I saw similar results and did promise to post when I got the data together in an understandable way -- phone calls, lunch, etc. all caused my delay.

Since I'm waiting to hear why cuff choice is affecting sleeve length instead of sleeve width (a different posting), I thought I'd better see if my sleeve cap also would need special attention before cutting the garment.

I did exactly what Kay said she did -- I chose the same blouse (casual fitted shirt), comfort fit, and changed ONLY the sleeve cap ease. Nothing else. Except I used my measurements and my computer.

So here goes -- this is it in the nutshell from my trial (and I can supply all the details for anyone who wants them):

If you ask for a particular sleeve cap ease, DS will get you as close as possible but maybe not exactly. That's ok--I understand and accept that.

I asked for .75" sleeve cap ease and it told me it would give me .79". OK. But when I add/subtract the numbers in the sleeve summary, it appears that instead it had to give me .88" instead of the .79". OK .... 1/8" off; I can even understand/accept that.

The frustrating part is that if I take tape measure to sleeve cap (and no, I'm not including the seam allowances, and yes, I'm standing the tape on edge), the pattern has drafted/printed to 1.17" extra (sleeve cap measures 22.5" and armhole measures 21.33") -- I asked for .75" ease and got 1.17".

So I thought ... wonder what the default is doing? The 1.5" default gave me the following numbers: Resultant cap ease (printed on patter): 1.54"; from sleeve summary (Front sleevecap length + Back sleevecap length) - (front armhole length + back armhole length) = 1.63" difference. The actual paper pattern sleeve cap printed at 100%, though, measures 1.92" larger than my armhole opening.

The armholes are matching exactly what the sleeve summary says they should.

The debate about what the best sleeve cap ease should be is an old one and I'm pleased that DS offers us a choice in our preferred ease. It's frustrating, though, when we can't trust the numbers being reported and have to print the sleeve cap, assemble the pattern pieces, and measure them to see if the draft will be acceptable to us.

1: I prefer .75" of ease for most blouses and dresses. If I am using a knit fabric I may reduce that to .5" Just preferences - you may like something else.

[B}2:[=/B] I just printed a fitted shirt at default. I assembled it and compared the measurements to what I saw on the screen with the sleeve tool. The measurements were not precisely the same, but the greatest difference was .08". That's less than 1/10". Who cares? I would never notice that difference in fabric.

Next I printed the same thing with one change - I changed the ease to .75" Again no measurement differed by more than .08"

I then calculated the percentage of ease that is allocated to the front and the back, with the numbers on the screen and the numbers from my measurements.

Results:

screen pattern
pct pct
1.5" ease front 0.45 0.42
back 0.55 0.58




.75" ease front 0.57 0.50
back 0.43 0.50

There is a target percent for each. I thought is was 40" front and 60% back, but I could be mistaken. At any rate there is supposed to be more in the back than in the front.

As you can see, that ratio is not occuring when the ease is changed to .75" with my measurements. That is only one sample, and certainly not enough of a test to be conclusive.

The total ease as I measured it did not match exactly what was printed on the screen. However, the difference was never more than 1/8", which is insignificant IMHO.

Some thoughts: When I put in a sleeve, I don't pay close attention to whether or not the dot at the top of the pattern matches the shoulder point, although is is always close. If the sleeve wants to go in better if I shift it a bit, so be it.

Also, there was some mention of choosing casual fit. If you do that, you are adding something else to the mix. It is possible that the way the sleeve drafts with casual fit is somewhat different. I don't know because I don't use that fit level. It looks ok on my screen, but that is not a good test. If it concerns you, you should compare the default fit with casual fit - no sleeve cap ease change. Once you know if there are differences between the fit levels, you can then add cap ease to your comparison.

As Bob said, the sleeve draft is complicated. It is not perfect, but it sure is a lot better than it once was.