I am designing a bodice with a 1.5" shldr seam and deep V back (almost to waistline)

Directions for across shldr back & across bk say to measure curve of back "because the fabric in the garments will need to cover this area".

The front across shldr says to take a straight measurement "in the air" if necessary since "the neckline of course will be cut out".

However, since the wide neckline with deep V design also cuts away most of the back neckline & back fabric, how should I adjust? Should I take straight meaurements like across frnt shldr?

Any ideas?
Thx jean

DO NOT change the chart - use the neckline tool to adjust the neck width and depth openings.

Kaaren

Karen,

I did use the neckline tool and neck depth adj to get the wide neck & deep v back.

but is is too wide at across back still. there is almost an inch diff between using a ruler and using a tape measure. Since the dress does not have to span the slight curve in my upper back, how does DS know this? How does DS know whether I even have a curve?

Jean

quote:

I did use the neckline tool and neck depth adj to get the wide neck & deep v back.

but is is too wide at across back still. there is almost an inch diff between using a ruler and using a tape measure. Since the dress does not have to span the slight curve in my upper back, how does DS know this? How does DS know whether I even have a curve?

Hi. Im sorry but I dotn get how two measurign devices a ruler and a tape measure come up with different values?

Nor Do I understand where across the back its "too wide"

If the wide vee in back is loose and unstructured it may gape and fall off the shoulders even with a "good neck setting".

A simple addition of an embellished trim, strand of "rhinestones"even a simple gold or silver necklace chain or lace crossing the back on the horizontal or criss-crossing should hold the back in place without going to the effort of other structural supports such as interlinings and boning.

and finally DS goes by numbers- so if a flat straight back would measure 14 and the curved back measures 15 or more its going to use the wider number. (The 'Hill" formed by the curved back si expressed by the increase in the width.

A great fitting pattern still needs "support" and construction detail- the deep almost to waist back with a wide vee is a complicated design element if it is to stay in place- gravity says its gonna drift off and fall down so you need some anti gravity structure. GGG

Kaaren

Karen,

What's missing from this equation is the body suit that will go underneath and be attached at side & waist seams.

While it must span the bust and back curve, the dress does not. the attachment at waist holds the dress down (and on my shoulders) and keeps it from riding up when I raise my arms.

btw, if I ever get this finished it will be a template for my ballroom gowns for competition.

Jean

Cool Jean. If you get this figured out, please let me know as I tried to get DS to do this years and years ago (probably 10 at this point) and was never able to.
What I could never get across to anyone not sewing ballroom is that the armseye needs to be right up in the armpit so that raising the arms never affects the way the bodice sits on the body. If the bodice moves then the skirt moves and the look is lost plus there is a chance the underarm seam will tear. I hate having the dress remind me it is there when the armseye is in the wrong place. Last thing you need when you are competing is a slight unfocused moment that happens when the garment is not comfortable or restricting.
I finally went back to hand drafting the armseye up and the sleeve cap down. Lots of improvements to the program now which allows a couple of tweeks to be done by the program.
Dresses back in the 1950's were very snug into the armseye and my friend Alice helped me to understand what was done to achieve a good fit. Now if I could remember just exactly what she told me...
You at least know what you are looking for which is a good start. Boy, if that sleeve is not right up in the armpit the whole seam will let go with time.
Let me know exactly what you finally do to acheive what you need. Sure would not like to have to re-invent the wheel.
Oh -- are you working with DS or MPD
Duckie

Duckie,

I thought I remembered another br dancer on this board from a few years ago...Good to hear from you again!!!

I am trying DS once again & find it VERY FRUSTRATING again! It seems to defy the very basic tenents and wll draft seam lines that make no sense.

I.e. the fitted bodice problem I have been having... Principal #1 in pattern drafting is DRT ROTATIION HAS NO AFFECT ON TOTAL LENGTHS of ANY measurement. CF, WAIST, SS, Shldr Len, Bust, AHD all remain the same regardless of where darts are placed. Rotation only affects the angles at which they intersect.

But DS drafted the fitted bodice's ss len 1" shorter when I choose waist drt only (which affected bk armscye, of course) versus side and waist drt.

I also discovered (painfully) that the princess bodice drafted my front waistline 2" too short. Good thing I was just working on a muslin. It never occurred to me to even chk such a basic measurement. I will from now on.

Getting the right fit from sholder to bottom of armscye is crucial to me too. And we really only need a great fit down to ab level. The rest is all 1 1/2+ circle skirts which hide the hips and more!

Once I was told that on the sloper, DS add 15% to AHD (on chart) to calc where it should be on bodice, I subtracted that same amount as negative ah ease.

Next I had x bk shlder & x back remeasured with straight edge (like frnt x shldr, "in the air").
It made sense to me that if frnt x shlder is taken that way and not around the throat, then x bk shlder should also be taken that way if back neckline is cut way. - same concept for x bk if most of fabric is cut away. *** My back design is a deep V (almost to waist with 1.5" shldr seams).

This has answered the question of why the muslin, complete with deep V was falling off my shoulders but sloper was fine.

DS's measurments for same assume the fabric has to be wide enough to cover the curve of your back but this is no longer true if the fabric is cut away.

As for sleeves, I am still working on the formula. Right now I am getting ready to try slv cap height of chart AHD * 75% and slv cap width of bicep * 140%. This gives me .88" ease.
Do you have any thoughts on this??? Have you shortened AHD and/or lengthened ss len on chart to shorten armscye in addition to or in place of negative ah ease?

It seems to me that DS is geared toward comfort clothes not close fitting athletic (but tailored) styles. I would also love to see a true off the shlder. I have just relearned (thanks to my old textbook from a pattern drafting class) that this design is achieved with a drop shoulder (think top half of a cap slv but cut as one w/bodice) then drafting scoop/boatneck/bateau neckline all the way across thru cut-on cap.

Another question on slvs? have you ever figured out how to adj ease between front & back slv cap? The distribution is not great.

There is something wrong with with the leotard pattern as it will not show/print any sleeve options. I will report this to Bob.... maybe a sleeve they expect you to "exercise" in will have the right proportions....

Well it's 1AM and I must go to bed..
Hope to hear from you again soon!

Jean

I have been reading these posts about across back, shallow close arm holes etc for ball room dance gowns with interest.

Before I go too far afield I want it known that my comments are in no way negative to the posters but an attempt at enlightment.

First competitive dance gowns are not every day wear for most of us and the specialty fit level and design of arm holes and necklines for every day wear is very different from day wear,or even normal exercise clothing for schlepping to the gym for a 30 minute workout or for kid's school costuming.

That being said as the caveat to start my comments I'll move on. Its clear you have some knowledge of what you want or where you want to go with your fit...and thats a very very good thing.

It's also clear using stand up every day wear measurements are not getting you there.

so a few points to start with - The DS sloper drafts to it's very own particular drafting code which is NOT the garment drafting code so what works 100% on the sloper in all instances is not what works on all garments. The slopers original intention was to proof the chart enough for the original dress shop which was very simple, rather loose fitting designs.

That's one of the reasons why we added the torso sloper to MPD as a fit test garment( and I will attach the DS torso sloper pattern to this post.load it to C program files, Livingsoft DS, My Patterns and to use load it from file load pattern) RATS_ it wont accept the pat file- email me directly and I will send it to you!!!
MPD also has a newer more advanced drafting code and chart for adjusting both arm hole depths front and back and lengths so this would be an "easier" job especially with princess line garments in MPD. DS has more active wear cause we havent yet released an active wear collection in MPD.

The key is giving the program numbers that get you close to where you want to start(even IF they arent your proported real numbers). In the case of specialty garments such as ball room dance gowns that may well mean NOT following the measuring isntructions to a Tee.

but you don't have to start from scratch. I take it both ladies in thsi discussion who make these types of garments can pin fit and maybe even drape- that gives you the knowledge of WHERE to tuck,pleat and slash.if Im wrong correct me now.

BASTE the torso pattern up with your current chart. Before you put the beast on draw on the following lines with a pencil or use a marker and graphite paper: across shoulder, across chest, across back, back bust ,high bust and bust- high waist, waist abd and hip. Mark from the floor to the waist center front, side and center back using a tape measure in a different color pencil or marker.

Hopefully with another person to assist pin fit, and use a colored marker to make clear adjustments to whatever needs adjusting- having the reference lines ON the sloper.

Measure the garment in it's fitted state! Adjust the chart as needed.Name it for dance gowns so it isnt used for everyday clothing.

IF the adjustments are ityy bittys print the bodice of the garment you desire for your gown.(if many adjustments to the chart remake a new torso sloper and baste it together). Try a longer than waist garment rather than a bodice - its more fitted...whacking off from waist down of the pattern is a single cut with a rotary cutter.

Overlay the garment on the marked and fitted torso sloper before removing basting threads. Now you have a visual right in front of you of the start point for a fitted sheath which goes below the waist and how the darting effects side lengths, etc.and what you get for a day wear fit garment.

adjust the dance gown chart for your special dance wear - it may take reducing bicep numbers to bring the sleeve ease down sufficiently and when you do you may need to raise cap height to rebalance that close fitting sleeve. If fabrics with spandex or lycra are your play ground do use the horizontal stretch factor as a working tool. Dont be afraid to use the sleeve of a garment with both vert and horizontal stretch and apply it to the torso arm hole of a garment with just horizontal stretch or vice versa.

Yes- you can get where you want to go its just going to take thinking outside the box a bit and a little creativity to get the base block done- after that....the program is very consistent.

We have long suggested overlays to getting what you want- ie. overlay a unitard sleeve and arm hole on a leotard.

I hope Ive helped some.

Kaaren

Karen,

you have the right idea about what dancers (and folks like the pro ice skaters etc) need as far as fit in a gown that allows for full range of motion without pulling on the bodice

yes we use stretch fabric which adds all the ease we need - that's why it must like a glove first without any ease in the pattern itself.

yes I have figured out you MUST LIE to DS in order to get what you want - smaller x shlders, ahd, hb in the chart - just for this style.

For my body, I must have a waistline seam. I have a sway back and tummy which accounts for the 4 inch diff between my frnt & back waist. The torso sloper (which I already have)- even cut to ab line, both gapes away from back waistline & has a horizontal fold at bk waist. I cannot use a straight back seam that extends beyond wl for this reason. Even having bk dart and indenting bk seam at waist does not eliminate the horizontal excess.

I extend the bodice to ab level by taking a straight skirt, adding extra darts (for my tummy <G>, & eliminate all ease. I print just the top pages & trace out to ab line. Then I slash & close darts, & smooth out the waist & ab lines, & add sa. The wl of this add-on now matches the wl of bodice. The skirt (usually one & a half to double circle) is attached at the bottom of the add-on. I use my CAD program to create the pattern for the skirt. it's great at drawing circles and leting me create pie shapes in the exact dimensions I require.

You made a comment about lieing to DS about bicep meas on chart. Have to try that one...

I am about to try on my sloper with the latest sleeve adj. I'll keep you posted...

Now could you give me some insight on the leotard? I'll start a new thread for this question...
Jean

Long ago when I was stiching these for the public, I had hoped to find an easy answer to tweaking a customer's measurements and going ahead but never found just the right person to ask about what I needed to do to achieve the look we were aiming for. Just didn't have the time to spend when the money was coming from results and not experimentation if you know what I mean. So I hand drafted the woven or knit outer pattern and blended it to the knit bodysuit pattern -- left large seams and prayed. Only once I had to recut the outer to be big enough.
Since I never cut my back V low to the waist, I have not had that problem -- need a bra due to the size of my bust. Also most of my customers were either too shy to do that or two old. lol Only V latin I made was cut just above the plumbers ummmm crack. sorry. She was a trainer and in fabulous shape and her back was indeed her best feature. But I was working with knits and therefore bathing suit patterns so not an issue there.
I have made a couple of items which completely removed [well nearly] the sleeve cap. DS does that well now. New feature that was not available in the long ago past. Makes the cap look like a flying sea gull. And I think if I remember, it also raises the underarm seam when you do that but that has been awhile so not really sure I am remembering correctly.
Almost all of my sleeves are now knit so I use the ease that the knit tells me. Then I lower the cap until it looks right. used to raise the bodice ss lenth into the armpit and do the same corresponding raise to the sleeve ss. [this all mostly hand drafting mind you] I would fold down the sleeve cap. Now doing this without the program means the bodice armhole will almost always be smaller that the sleeve. So reverse from normal sewing, I start at top of sleeve matching notch to bodice shoulder seam and then fit one to one down to the notches. Then I begin easing in the sleeve. Whatever is left and gathered should then be in the underarm area. This does not show from the floor while you are dancing and allows for all the dancing movement you need. Is it the perfect solution -NO but it worked. The perfect solution would be telling the program where you wanted the sleeve and ss to be and it would trust you. Even if that meant you had to lie to get it done.
When I worked with knits only, I used Stretch and Sew leo's, bathing suits, and unitard patterns as bases and never had that issue with the sleeves.
Distribution of sleeve ease either found its way under the arm. If I measured both the hole and the cap and there was toooooo much difference betweent he two, I pinched tiny darts out of the pattern in the cap itself.
I still think there will be hand tweaking to these patterns even if we could ever match the armholes to the sleeve and match the leo armhole to the bodice armhole. That may still have to be done by hand.
Been thinking on your v back issue. Did the shoulder placement change between the muslin without the low v and other? I made a MOB dress with a lower back and had to pinch out tiny pattern darts [this has been years ago so fuzzy here] which somehow pulled things back against the body. And this was store bought pattern. With a ballroom gown, you could added elastic to that V edge to insure it stayed where you wanted it without dropping off the shoulders. Of course there is that hideous elastic strap side to side, but that is never good and frankly, if the garment fitted, it would not be necessary.
Have you been using that neat little ruler tool so you can measure on screen in say 25% to how see changes you make a the chart looks without having to print pages?
http://www.fabsoft.com/products/ruler/ruler.html
and it is free. Called cool ruler if this link doesn't work for you.
While I am thinking about it, I always tweaked the sleeve hem by hand no matter what as I added the > bottom anyway on most sleeves unless I was sewing bells.
Hope I touched on some of what you were asking.
Duckie

Duckie,

I sorta follow what you are saying about slv cap shape.

I'm still trying to get mine to look right.
I have adj armhole in DS till it is ok (right under up under armpit and seamlines and shldr point where they're supposed to be)

it seems that if I say slv cap height is 50% of default (to get the flying seagull shape), the bicep width that DS drafts is huge and creates diagonal folds in the slv cap when I raise my arm.

If I set bicep ease to 1", I get negative -4" of sc ease.

I think we need to be able to specify secific sc width, and cap height, then specify amt of ease. DS should redraft seamline shape without changing height & width specified.

Does that sound right to you??

I'm about to give up on putting a fitted slv in thid dress and goto a bell sleeve.

btw re deep V frnt and back.

I did adj shldr len -.25 but I think it was wrong to start with. (I had a DS educator take my meaurements)

my back is also my best feature and I guess I am lucky(?) because I do not need a bra or bust cups thanks to a brush with breast cancer 6 years ago.

I had reconstruction immediately following double mastectomy, so my bust shape is the equivilent of having a grapefruit cut in half and inserted under my chest wall muscle. the implants do not move. Plus side, no sagging - minus side- no cleavage and unforunately they are not level, one side about 1/2" lower than other despite having them done twice.

This accounts for a lot of the adj I have had to make as the normal body tissue that would be present (if my frnt bust measurement was from natural tissue) is simply not there.

I may have to have them redone (one more time)as I think scar tissue is starting to restrict the amount/angle I can raise my arms.

maybe this time, they can get them level...

Pls let me know waht you think about my slv cap idea.

Jean