I submitted this as a problem report 2 days ago and still have not received acknowledgment that the report was ever received.

I drafted a fitted shirt by choosing Blouses, Fitted Blouse, Fitted Shirt. I recorded the sleeve measurements.

Then I selected No Blouse. From there, I chose Men's wear, Shirts, Fitted Shirt and recorded those sleeve numbers. I wanted to see how the men's and women's sleeves differed.

Then I chose No Men's Wear and went back to the women's fitted shirt via Blouse, fitted blouse, fitted shirt. The sleeve measurements no longer matched the measurements as originally drafted. I expected to see a difference between the mens and womens but do not understand why the same women's shirt drafted differently depending on when the draft was done.

Please let me know if you already have the problem report or if I need to resubmit.

Renee Wuenstel

You didn't close between jumping back and forth from womens to men's to womens.sounds like something is sticking and it is probably tied to the specific order you did that.

The mens sleeve is very different from the womans.
First the shoulder extension itself is different
the arm hole is deeper
the front and back arm hole difference ( 1 inch for womens) is slightly larger in mens.

Because the shoulder is extended the cap is shorter
the cap ease is also slightly less.

Viewing a mans garment with a womens chart will produce different resultsfrom looking at a mans garment with a mans chart.


likewise looking at a main menu garment with a Man's chart will produce different results from looking at the same items with a womans chart cause the code is different.

Under Mia or Marc you will see what chart "class" is used as well as which garment class is used.

This was not simple making the mens collection.It is an enormous body of work.

We had to consider and did account for what if a woman wants a men's shirt.how else should it differ besides the fact the woman has a bust line and the proportions are very different.

do we use the same percentage of shoulder extension?
Arm hole drop?
ease percentages?
do men and women get the same neck width/depth?
do men and women get the same crotch rise?

or even the same crotch point..the mens is forward, has a considerable center back dart, the womens is still mid inner leg at default with a smaller cb dart at default.

the answer to all that was NO.

jumping back and forth needs you to close or restart the program to clear stuff.....

draft one print a 1/4 scale, draft the other print a 1/4 scale, overlay to see ALL the differences with a restart in there...generally you can go from one to another but by the time you go back again.....hmmmmmmm stuff starts sticking.


Yes there are indeed deliberate, carefully thought out, tested differences and some are quite dramatic.


Kaaren

quote:

I submitted this as a problem report 2 days ago and still have not received acknowledgment that the report was ever received.

I drafted a fitted shirt by choosing Blouses, Fitted Blouse, Fitted Shirt. I recorded the sleeve measurements.

Then I selected No Blouse. From there, I chose Men's wear, Shirts, Fitted Shirt and recorded those sleeve numbers. I wanted to see how the men's and women's sleeves differed.

Then I chose No Men's Wear and went back to the women's fitted shirt via Blouse, fitted blouse, fitted shirt. The sleeve measurements no longer matched the measurements as originally drafted. I expected to see a difference between the mens and womens but do not understand why the same women's shirt drafted differently depending on when the draft was done.

I received your report, Renee. But, this type of report is in the category of intellectual curiosity. When I get reports saying a pattern does not fit, it gets top priority, particularly if there is any possibility that it might affect others. Then, reports with measurement errors that cause bad patterns get attention next. Then, reports with installation issues, uninstall issues, update issues, and compatibility issues. Then, reports that suggest that one of the informational aids in the program is not accurate (Fit Tool displays the wrong numbers. Measurement line ease amounts are not correct).

Then, of course, I have to spend some time on issues that might possibly provide an income for me some day. Fixing bugs and releasing free updates does not help there.

Then, of course, I read the forum and reply to posts asking for advice or asking what is going on.

If I get past those chores, then I work on the problem reports that I put in the intellectual curiosity category. Please explain to me why something works this way. And, among those, the problems that can be corrected simply by using the File menu - Restart option to clear old data and start fresh - well, those get the very last attention of all.

I usually get to them eventually, though. Usually...

I'm not trying to be difficult here but I think it is more than "intellectual curiosity" if I have to exit the program between every pattern draft to ensure accuracy. I understand the necessity of assigning priorities to issues. However, if someone is not aware of the need to restart, it tends to escalate the problems to something more like patterns that don't fit right. I may not have ever noticed the differences except that I was purposely comparing 2 different drafts. Perhaps this is the very reason some people have fitting problems at times or problems cannot always be recreated by others. Just a thought.

Renee Wuenstel

Hi I dont thionk you quite understand yet even though I did such a long long post.

mens charts draft with different commands than womens.
mens patterns have different design commands than womens

a womans chart and a mans pattern will have different results froms a mans chart with a mans pattern. This is hugely complex.

We know we get occassional "stickeys"

they are not often easy to replicate.

Sometimes its pattern selection, sometimes its option selection and often in a very specific order.

Sometimes it really seems random.

The solution when jumping from one class of patterns mens to womens, or one class of charts mens to womens or vice versa is to click file, restart which will in fact clear everything including stickeys.

I repeated exactly what you said you did and did not get the results you got.

Something (whatever) didnt stick that stuck for you.

In every set of classes I make a point about sometimes things stick. I have also written about it on the board frequently over the years.

I have also written when making many design decisions , and changing them frequently during a draft, always keep notes, copy the pattern summary and print the actual full scale pattern after a fresh start.

When to do that ....? any time you have changed the ease/fit/sleeve/neck more than 1 time each.

Make sure what you are drafting is what you thought you drafted.

Ill give an example : for a while any really wide neck would leave some vestige of neck width when you changed the neck to a standard neckline.that was maybe square or sweet heart.

We did find that and did fix it eventually.

We can EXPECT the complexities of the mens fit/charts versus womens fit/charts versus kids fit/charts and the many possible combinations to produce stickies.

Change class from custom chart to standard to measurement wizard and from womens patterns to mens and voila....expect stickies.

We don't like stickies ( unless they are pecan cinnamon and loaded with butter and hot.....)

sighhhhhhhhhhhhh
but we get em.

But as they are NOT consistent we cant just easily debug them....

Kaaren

quote:

Originally posted by rjw:
I'm not trying to be difficult here but I think it is more than "intellectual curiosity" if I have to exit the program between every pattern draft to ensure accuracy. Renee Wuenstel

Exiting the program between patterns is not required to ensure accuracy. Just go to File, Restart if you think there's any possibility something might be causing a glitch.

I need to add soemthign here as well...you can get a mans fit from a mans shirt by using a womans chart and selectign the mans pattern....ok Ive said that ebfore. The model that pops up fresh is Marc not Mia.....

If you click womans under the model the shirt redrafts.....and changes.

so..there are three ways to set which set of code is used.

change the model...get the gender change
use a mans chart
use a womans chart get the gender change

on the chart itself specify gender.

Old charts are now all marked woman even if you have your man's name in there. Go in select "himselfs chart and click man.


f you see Marc and want to draft to womans guidelines ( allowing side darts, less ease blah blah) click woman under the model..and it will redraft.

and do watch for that tip that pops up under the model about which gender is drafting what.

I just put in my DH chart, selected womans fitted blouse form the main menu and it says
MIA ( and tis her modeling) is showing the fitted shirt using a mans measurements.

click for Marc and it now shows showing fitted shirt ( which is actually a womans chart with womans code discipline altered to a mans fit.part of which is NO side dart.)

BUt it is not the same shirt you will get if you select man, man chart, man pattern, fitted dress shirt from the men's menu.

sorry to make this sound so confusing.......I told you it was a big deal.

three ways to establish which gender you want:
chart mark gender)

Model: mark for man or woman

pattern selection: main menu is womens, mens is mens

and very like a good Chinese menu you can pick from Column A or B.....

switching routines in the middle can cause confusion.

File, restart is a tool to be used liberally!

Kaaren

Kaaren,
I was wondering about a Man's slim fit dress shirt.
I DO NOT have the new mens add on set.
(I have an old pattern packet)
can I draft a shirt to fit a woman while still having Marc as a model?
What sort of fit do I expect for a woman?
I cannot change gender with the model as I don't have the Menswear collection.
Thanks,
Tris