I wrote out a nice coherent query and it seems to have gone out into cyberspace somewhere. I'll see if I can recreate the essence, and forgive me if more frustration comes through this time --

What I want to do: print a true boot cut pants pattern.

What I see in DS when I compare my great-fitting Fitted Pant pattern to the Boot Cut (Fitted) pattern:

1. The Boot Cut pattern does not flare out from the knee to the hem. Although the Boot Cut pant does have a wider leg circumference than the Fitted pant default, the Boot Cut still tapers (narrows) from the knee to the hem instead of flaring (widen).

2. The Fitted Pant hem line is straight where the Boot Cut has a concave front and convex back hem.

3. Even though changing the hem circumference of the Boot Cut pant does make the hem wider but it also makes the knee wider -- a wider pant leg in general instead of a flared-from-the-knee pant leg.

Since there are no descriptions available (or I can't find them) of what the DS Boot Cut (Fitted) pant silhouette is intended to be, all I can do is go on what "boot cut" usually means when you're buying pants. I don't know if I'm choosing an inappropriate silhouette or if I'm choosing correctly and it's not drafting as it should, or if DS has redefined the meaning of "boot cut" and a clone isn't possible with the software.

I thought of using the Bell Bottom pattern which does flare from the knee to the hem and I can decrease the hem circumference to get the leg that I think I want. However, the torso of the pattern (waist/abs/hip) are significantly different from the Fitted Pant.

What do I mean by significant? The waist is smaller (and accordingly has narrower darts), the abs & hips "bloop" out at the sides with a very rounded curve that if the Fitted Pant is perfect, will probably give me high jodhpurs -- maybe not. But overlaying the two printouts makes it look like they were drafted for two different people instead of using the same measurement set. (yes, I did a No Pants inbetween drafts). The Fitted Pant waist appears to be maybe an inch higher than the Bell Bottom (maybe that is also intentional by the designer -- I don't know).

I'm a little frustrated in that it seems like with all the bells and whistles that I've purchased it looks like the only way to get a boot cut pant is to print the Fitted Pant, at least to the knees and then either use my pencil to hand draft the flare or print a modified bell bottom pant from the knee down and merge the two patterns.

Is there a way to do it on the computer completely within DS?

Thanks.

Hi Gayle,
What a great question. I am in the process of making pants for my daughter that go in at the knee and then flare out. I don't know if they are considered boot cut, because they are a variation of a dressier pant. Here is a link to the pattern:
daughter's pants

And here is another link:
Pants

Now both of these have a seam that comes about at the knee and then flares out. I put them here to get a sense of how much ease you want to decrease in the knee area. Are these close to the look you are trying to get?

For my daughter's pants I taped the top and bottom pieces together and made them as a whole leg. It would be nice if we could get pants like this on DS, then we could have more control in leg shaping, IMO. Taping them together would be alot easier than a pencil fix.

This does not answer your question, but hopefully gives us a clearer idea of what shape you want to achieve. I tried playing a little bit with the sloper on to see if I could suggest a pencil change, but I did not get near the shape I got on my daughter's pants.

Also what I find interesting is that the bell bottom pants are classified under "casual pants". But because of the "bloop" curve at the sides (I get it too), it looks like it would be a tighter fit. Personally, I don't like the "bloop" look, but I use the slim fit pattern as the basis for all pants and shorts I make, so I guess it is a matter of personal preference.

I hope you get a solution soon.
Linda Flint

Gayle

I've been working on a RTW copy of a boot cut pant also. So far, the best luck I've had is using the slim fit pant and do a minus knee ease and increase hem circumference.

I also totally ignore the yoke, which IMHO is awful and draw my own.

However, with the latest 6.12 update I'm fighting changes it made to the slim fit pant. I just did a default slim pant because the qtr printouts were different. I have way less ab room in the new build and the crotch is slightly different as well as darts are in different locations. Guess I'll have to get all that worked out before I go back to working on jeans.

quote:

Are these close to the look you are trying to get?

Yes, Linda, but without the seam.

Here are some other links to what the rest of the world calls Boot Cut pants.

http://fashion.about.com/blbootleg.htm

http://www.robinsonsmay.com/gifts/OnlineShopping/CA?Dsp...0927:10502:10504&c=1

http://www.drysdales.com/Drysdales/assets/html/cuts_IE.htm

So according to the Drysdales site, DS is offering Cowboy cut and not Boot Cut.

I just looked at the DS Flared Pant (I missed seeing this one when I picked Bell Bottoms before)and this does seem to be the leg I'm looking for as a boot cut -- but it's drafting in the torso the same as the bell bottom and doesn't look like it will fit correctly at my waist/abs/hips. The Mia art on the Flared pant is definitely not what I want but I think that a decrease in the hem circumference might give a Boot Cut leg.

Curiously, in comparing printouts of the Flared pant with the Bell Bottom pant, they look identical in the ab & hip; the Bell Bottom is slightly higher (about 1/2") at the center back and the crotch point looks like it might come a bit higher in the Flared.

The Flared Pant is found in "Close Fit" and the Bell Bottom is in "Casual Fit" So I guess in pants, this indicates only how snugly the crotch seam will fit and not how tight they are around waist/abs/hip.

I guess I'll try a muslin of the Flare and see what happens. Descriptions of what the original designer intended would be so helpful. And it would be great to be able to look at written descriptions and know which ones can be "tweaked" at thigh and which ones have flexibility at the knee, etc.

Gayle

Oh Gayle, you said it so perfectly in your last paragraph. A written description of what a pattern is "supposed" to be would be wonderful.
I'm really anxious to hear your report on doing a muslin for the flared pant. Maybe that is what I've wanted all along and didn't know it. I just want to make a pair of boot cut jeans that look like RTW, but fit me.

Hi Gayle,
I can't wait to hear about your muslin also. I am concerned about the waist shaping. It is putting waist shaping in the side seam and I can't understand why it would be it be different from other pants. At least on paper it does not look like it will fit the same, so a muslin will help us to understand.

Thanks for doing this, you are not only doing it for you, but for others as well.
Linda

quote:

Since there are no descriptions available (or I can't find them) of what the DS Boot Cut (Fitted) pant silhouette is intended to be, all I can do is go on what "boot cut" usually means when you're buying pants. I don't know if I'm choosing an inappropriate silhouette or if I'm choosing correctly and it's not drafting as it should, or if DS has redefined the meaning of "boot cut" and a clone isn't possible with the software.

It is difficult to tell you which pattern the boot cut pants are derived from since there are is no pattern in Dress Shop called "The Boot Cut Pants".

But, the Boot Cut (fitted) pattern is derived from the fitted pants. The Boot Cut (Slim Fit) and the Boot Cut (Tapered) are both derived from the Slim Fit pants pattern.

If you want a close fit at the knee, you need to work from the Boot Cut (Slim Fit) pattern, since it is adjustable at the knee and the fitted pants version is not.

quote:

It is difficult to tell you which pattern the boot cut pants are derived from since there are is no pattern in Dress Shop called "The Boot Cut Pants".

But, the Boot Cut (fitted) pattern is derived from the fitted pants. The Boot Cut (Slim Fit) and the Boot Cut (Tapered) are both derived from the Slim Fit pants pattern.

If you want a close fit at the knee, you need to work from the Boot Cut (Slim Fit) pattern, since it is adjustable at the knee and the fitted pants version is not.

This illustrates part of the problem -- I did use the term Boot Cut (Fitted) several times but used the term Boot Cut pant more as a generic description.

Having the information you provided above is very helpful -- THANK YOU -- but it is hard to go back into archives and find it when needed. And some people buy the program and depend on the manual without reading the daily discussion posts.

To me Boot Cut Pants (Slim Fit) is the only one that is named appropriately -- and I realize that you may have not have had any input into the names. But because when I pull it up on the screen at default it appears as a straight legged pant, I didn't think to use this pattern.

Boot Cut Pants (Tapered) is an oxymoron since Boot Cut means flare and Tapered means narrow at the bottom.

Boot Cut Pants (Fitted) implies that it will fit the same as Fitted Pants but with a boot cut at the bottom -- which is impossible to achieve since it is derived from the fitted pant.

Because I really like the way my Fitted Pants fit and because I want to make pants (not jeans) with a slight boot cut flare to the hem, I figured that Boot Cut Pants (Fitted) would fit the bill.

With all the pattern options I realize it would take time to go back and list the core pants and write a brief description of them .... followed by a list of their derivatives and what each derivative was intended to achieve but that is really what would provide users with necessary information to choose the correct pattern at the start and not try to make changes that are beyond the capabilities of the software.

We all want to work WITH the software and use it to its fullest potential but get frustrated when we don't get what would seem to be a logical result from our drafting choices.